Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Understand your point Harvey but don't know if you remember a while ago we found a artical on F1 engines and they open it up so it may not be as old school as we think.
Tony

Do you have that handy? I know F1 engines are so tight they cannot physically turn until a certain oil / water temperature. Not sure if this is piston bore or bearing clearance or both. I also know Subaru STI WRC ran far skinnier bearings for less friction. Hmmmm.

[Dessertrunner]

I tried to bring the link up last year and it didn't work so I think its been pulled down.

By the way plan A mod to the existing pump to be able to use it with the dry sump won't work so I need a diffent method which I will get sorted some how.
Tony

This was the link,
http://www.onecamonly.com/naturally-...good-read.html

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

I tried to bring the link up last year and it didn't work so I think its been pulled down.

By the way plan A mod to the existing pump to be able to use it with the dry sump won't work so I need a diffent method which I will get sorted some how.
Tony

This was the link,
http://www.onecamonly.com/naturally-...good-read.html

Doh, what went wrong? Zen Motorsport did it... time for an email to them maybe One of the quickest time attack cars on the planet. He has actually given me a great deal of advice for my suspension setup - guy is a legend with a lot of time for others - respect.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...5527799&type=1

[icingdeath88]

I have ordered some oil pressure/temp gauges to do some of my own testing. An oil filter adapter will suffice, right? I also ordered a galley plug adapter that I am fairly certain will fit, but would probably necessitate taking the intake manifold off. Plus that would only fit one of the sensors.

[Dessertrunner]

Does anyone have the crankcase of either a EG 33 and or the 4 cyclinder engine aparts so they can measure the diameter of the drill port of the oil flow behind the bearings. I think it is important to make sure they are the same as other Subaru models.
Tony

[TomsSVX]

In regards to oiling. Best solution I can think of to make sure there is no starving for oil at the pump or bearings is to bore the oil jackets from the Galley to the crank, bore the jackets on the crank, run an electric pump with dual feeds into each side of the crankcase. This way you can run a slightly larger clearance on the bearings if you want and still have the flow and pressure needed. I know it sounds like a lot but this would be the ideal way to bullet proof the oiling side of things. Whether the stock crank will hold up with bored jackets at those RPMs is up in the air. Billet all the way to make sure that is not an issue and you can have it made with whatever size jackets you want.

Simply put the engine was not engineered to run those R's so it is no surprise it is not going to be a simple task to get the oiling system up to snuff to feed the bearings.

On the topic of the T-belt... I was simply saying that keeping the belt from jumping time and stretching at those types of R's is going to take some reworking. Kevlar belt is a must and you might want to manufacture some bearings on the outside of the cog pulleys to ride very close to the belts outer surface to make sure the cogs don't slip. The stock tensioner might need to be replaced with something that can keep up with the vibrations at higher RPMs too.

My $.02 for what it is worth.

On the topic of cams. If you are getting billet blanks made like I would think you would, reducing the base circle is possible to help with high lift clearance against the head and the valve cover. I know since I did a weld and grind on Dan's cams we could not reduce the base circle very much without risking the integrity of the cam (which actually may have caused the first cam to break). For shims, I had to order shims for a motorcycle, I forget which engine right now. Once I had the shims I had to have each one machined to a certain height depending on what I needed for each valve. I used a simple plate shims like what you see on shim over subie buckets just smaller so they would fit under the gutted SVX bucket. You also need to machine the bump out of the underside of the SVX gutted bucket so it is a flat surface. Harvey mentioned the hole in the bucket. I did not block it to make sure the shim and top of valve train received oil. Did this lower oil pressure? Not to any noticeable level. The pin holes that are the oil supply for the followers I did not believe were of any real significance... but it may be worth looking into.

Tom

[dynomatt]

Have I mentioned before that MSR and others do fly cut oil galleries. I'm no engine builder, but I understand the oil gallery in either the bearing or the crank case is a vertically drilled hole...whereas, if you grind the hole one way (I realise without a picture this is probably useless) it encourages oil to flow out and around teh bearing or crank.

has anybody else heard of this?

I'll see if i can dig up a picture.

M

[Dessertrunner]

This will be my approach to this project.

I will take one of my higher K' engine and fit the dry sump and sort the oil pressure issue out making sure that it all runs okay etc. I will have to rough together a ECU map that will let it run at 10,000 (I have a Wolf ECU).
Put it in the engine dyno just to be able to run the engine with out load.

Bring it up to revs and monitor all the different guages as its running to see if it fails.
If there is no failure at this point then I will use a stepper motor on the throttle to run the engine throught a series of rev up and down to see how it stands this.

By this stage I woud expect something to have failed and need moding. If this has not happened then I will introduce a load on the engine from the dyno.

Every time I break something I will start back at the begining again.

My reason for doing it this way is,
Everything I have acheived and all the success I have got in my business was from failure. Success only come from learning from failure. For that reason I am not going to make major changes to all the compoents in the engine till I see that it is a problem that needs addressing.

I have order the alum to build the dry sump so I am now waiting on the pump to arrive from the US.

Have a great day all.
Tony

[svxfiles]

Today I finally got around to installing an oil pressure gauge on my Claret.
I wanted to check pressures before I install that modified oil pump to have a baseline.
Its a stock engine as far as the oil system goes,
naturally the Purolator L30165,
and most likely Mobil1 10/40.
At startup it showed 80 psi with a mechanical gauge.
After warmup, 20psi at 800 RPM.
About 126,000 miles on the engine.
A little later after its been running for a while I will see what the pressure is at 5,000 RPM without a load.

[icingdeath88]

Tom, where'd you put the sensor?

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

Tom, where'd you put the sensor?

I bought a 1/8" NPT T-fitting and a very short nipple,
removed the alternator and the power steering bracket
and screwed it strait down where the factory oil pressure sensor goes.
I put the factory sensor "sideways",
and the pressure sensor strait up, where the factory sensor was.
Since this is a "testing" gauge I just mounted ths actual gauge under the hood, at the power steering belt cover bolt.

That is why I will be testing the pressure at 5000 RPM, NOT under load.

IF the pressure shows too high at 5000 RPM,
then when I install the modified oil pump, IF the pressure drops,
THAT would show that the 14mm oil pump outlet is actually a restriction,
and if with the new pump it shows less, but acceptable pressures, then, YAA, I found a restriction to flow.



OR, the second/modified pump, just was not as efficient.

[icingdeath88]

Is the factory sensor used for anything other than the dummy light?

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

Have I mentioned before that MSR and others do fly cut oil galleries. I'm no engine builder, but I understand the oil gallery in either the bearing or the crank case is a vertically drilled hole...whereas, if you grind the hole one way (I realise without a picture this is probably useless) it encourages oil to flow out and around teh bearing or crank.

has anybody else heard of this?

I'll see if i can dig up a picture.

M

Hi Matt, this is pretty much common practice, to relieve the leading edge of the main crank pin, oil hole, to help it to scoop up the oil from the main bearing oil groove.

Harvey.

[svxfiles]

167°f, 5000 RPM, 84 PSI.
After She cools I think that I will change pumps.

[Dessertrunner]

Tom that is interesting data, what it says is that what ever you do to increase pump flow the pressure release will release. He need to take that knowledge on board and be clear what it means.
Tony