Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Dessertrunner · #1 06-08-2012, 07:01 PM

We figured that bits of what I have been working on are scattered around a bunch of different threads so it would be best to put it all in to one thread to explain were this is heading.

THE GOAL

DEVELOP A EG3.3 NA ENGINE CAPABLE OF RED LINING AT 10,000 DEVELOPING MAXIUM POWER POSSIABLE FROM THIS TYPE ENGINE

Okay Harvey and I have been talking about this in the backgroud working out a plan to enable this to be acheived. Matt has also contributed by his real world experiance. The arrival of Bazza to the forum brings a wealth of knowledge that we are picking up on. Also it would be dismiss of me to not point out that our ideas are ones that you have all contributed to. This plan is not about setting the world on fire all at one time, that doesn't work. Its about taking a number of small sets that each has there own completion and the end of them. So here is the plan. We may move the order around and add things, for want of a better expression this list is the ROAD MAP to the end. We will add to a file that will detail the best way to do each stage.

1:- Cooling.

2:- Bearing Failure.

3:- Change ECU.

4:- Increased Compression.

5:- Valve Lift & Springs.

6:- Cams & Torqure curves.

7:- Intake & Exhaust Systems.

8:- Cams Again

Things like "Which Rods" & "Which Pistons" will fall into place when & if the standard ones fail. The ECU had to be up the front as the standard ECU won't run up to 10,000rpm

We will appricate everyones suggestions and contirbutions but I need to say up front as its Harvey & my project if we don't take up a suggestion some one makes its just because we need to stay focused on the direction we want to go. That doesn't mean that you imput or suggestions won't be revisited at a later stage of development

I want to quote a saying we have at work,

"There is no such thing as sucess with out failure,
Failure is the foundation of success"

Okay team so there it is. We can put more meat on the bone over the coming months. Also if the thread goes dead for a while its just I will be in my silly season at work.

Have a grat day and lets all have some fun.

Tony

TomsSVX · #2 06-08-2012, 08:21 PM

My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's

Tom

svxfiles · #3 06-08-2012, 09:21 PM

Tony,
May I ask why you want to spin your SVX, 3.3 engine to 10,000 RPM?
What is your goal?

oab_au · #4 06-08-2012, 11:21 PM

Tom, to put it straight. The engine will be capable of spinning to 10000 without failing.
In the application that it will be used, 8500 usable rpms.

Harvey.

icingdeath88 · #5 06-08-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's

Tom

I have been wondering this exact thing lately. I have no idea even remotely how to go about doing this though.

Dessertrunner · #6 06-09-2012, 12:48 AM

Hi Guys,
Great input,

Quote:

My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's

- Tom thats a good point and worth checking. I seem to recall from doing the dyno belt that I can get a belt calculator to work out if it will last. As for the idlers all bears have speed and static & dynamic load tables so I will check those as well. At the end of the day we only want the parts to stay together for 1,000,s of miles not 100,000 miles.
It needs to be check. Anyone got the ability to do this?

Quote:

Tony,
May I ask why you want to spin your SVX, 3.3 engine to 10,000 RPM?
What is your goal?

- Funny Havey asked the same question, I think he said "Tony I am at a loss at what you are trying to acheive". My answer was Matt, Bazza & Jack all had bearing issues if I can get a motor to run at 10,000rpm with out doing bearings then when I pull it back to run at 8,500 as Harvey said it should never fail. Harvey suggested a couple of years back that the back of the engine is not getting enough oil and may need mods so we need to find out.
- The second point as to why 10k? Is that with NA engines the abolsulate best volumetric efficency we will get is 130% and that maybe impossiable. So the only other way is to increase rev. If we want power revs have to go up. Every time the plug fires its more power.

Okay from the discussion Jobs that need answers,
2a Will the timing belt and pullies stand the rev and if so what revs will they stand?
2b From the other posting Can we have the oil tank in the boot?

So these job will be live untill we can answer them with certainty. In the case of the belts the design parmeter need to be check.

Thanks for the input and lets have some fun.

Tony

TomsSVX · #7 06-09-2012, 06:29 AM

bearings fail more or less because of oil conditions. You would have to really look into volume. Have you thought about how much flow tge eg33 circuit can flow? The oil jackets eally are nott very large not to mention a custom crank with oversized bores would be a must.

RallyBob · #8 06-09-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

bearings fail more or less because of oil conditions. You would have to really look into volume. Have you thought about how much flow tge eg33 circuit can flow? The oil jackets eally are nott very large not to mention a custom crank with oversized bores would be a must.

Don't forget that Frank Aragona told me and Jack that the stock crank was very reliable until about 9500 rpms. Then they failed repeatedly. So he went the billet route to spin 10,500 reliably.

TomsSVX · #9 10-04-2012, 02:10 PM

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/produ...ermostats.html

Tom

SVXRide · #10 10-04-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/produ...ermostats.html

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that Chevy thermostats were the same size as ours.

Bill

Dessertrunner · #11 10-04-2012, 02:40 PM

Problem solved drilled a 4 mm hole in the thermostate and the problem has gone away. Opens correctly and due to the low temp state 61C the engine sits around 65c to 75 C. The day is due to be hotter around 34c so I will report back tonight on how the new set up behaves.

Tom that is a good idea would still need to drill it as the coolant does not get to the stat get it to open in the start. I think its smart the way it locks open.
One benfit of this new approach is the fan are never on other then when the AC is on.

Bill photos attached.
Tony

TomsSVX · #12 10-05-2012, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Tom,

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that Chevy thermostats were the same size as ours.

Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Problem solved drilled a 4 mm hole in the thermostate and the problem has gone away. Opens correctly and due to the low temp state 61C the engine sits around 65c to 75 C. The day is due to be hotter around 34c so I will report back tonight on how the new set up behaves.

Tom that is a good idea would still need to drill it as the coolant does not get to the stat get it to open in the start. I think its smart the way it locks open.
One benfit of this new approach is the fan are never on other then when the AC is on.

Bill photos attached.
Tony

Bill... its not... i used ut in their stat housing... which is why i recomend them.

Tony.... it works just fine... you could say "trust me"

Tom

SVXRide · #13 10-05-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Bill... its not... i used ut in their stat housing... which is why i recomend them.

Tony.... it works just fine... you could say "trust me"

Tom

Tom,
Thanks for the clarification!!
B

bazza · #14 10-06-2012, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Problem solved drilled a 4 mm hole in the thermostate and the problem has gone away. Opens correctly and due to the low temp state 61C the engine sits around 65c to 75 C. The day is due to be hotter around 34c so I will report back tonight on how the new set up behaves.

Tom that is a good idea would still need to drill it as the coolant does not get to the stat get it to open in the start. I think its smart the way it locks open.
One benfit of this new approach is the fan are never on other then when the AC is on.

Bill photos attached.
Tony

Nice work Tony. I had the privilege of driving Tony's Desert Monster of an SVX today, WOW, the punishment that car has taken through the desert is beyond comprehension... it's just in another world in terms of mods compared to every other SVX on the planet.

It's rather interesting to see his testing and my theory showed that Tom's setup doesn't really work - you need the bypass at the thermostat or it's just headed for epic fail / overheat / kaboom which I hope a few people take note of and learn from.

This pic was just after Tony gave it a hard time out on the dirt, showing his thermostat cover idea and new thermostat location with the drill hole working to perfection. Previously it would see over 100'C at this point in time. LHS head = 80'C, RHS head = 77'C etc.

I should also admit, I didn't realise how horribly small the SVX air inlet into the radiator is. The Foz is about 30% bigger and the STI's about 50% bigger. Kinda nasty but I'm sure Tony will solve that also haha.

Dessertrunner · #15 10-06-2012, 03:31 AM

Hi Bazza glad you enjoyed the experiance of the old girl.

I think we have proven that moving the thermostat to the top of the engine as Tom suggested a couple of years back and changing the water pump cover the cooling issue is over. Tom as regards using the other type thermostat I am not sure if it will fit also Bazza and I were stuck as we need to get one that would operate at 140F (61C) and there are not many types that will do that. Our hole idea is to reduce the engine temp so get more power.

Have a great day all.
Tony