Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Don't need to generate any combustion to try find the area of restriction to oil flow, simple tests is all. Questions like at 90psi how much can get throught the drilling on the crank to the mains and big ends. How much can get throught the block and how much throught the gallery holes on the bearing. Like Harvey says were is the restriction in the show.


Now it makes sense about crankcase flow/vacum.

Tony

Aaah, in the case definetely. I just thought you were also trying to find the limit of the bearings and see if they'd handle 10,000 rpm in basic form. I guess that's another test to be done also?

[Dessertrunner]

Just thought of it, I seem to remember rally Bob telling me Jack had to get new cams build from scrath.
Was that right Bob???

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Just thought of it, I seem to remember rally Bob telling me Jack had to get new cams build from scrath.
Was that right Bob???

Jack's cams were welded and reground by Web Camshafts.

Frank Aragona's original camshafts were also welded/reground by Web, however right around the time he found the stock crankshaft's limits, he said the cams started to become an issue.

Frank's later generation cams were custom billet pieces. While he wouldn't give me the exact specs, he did say valve lift was around .550" (13.97 mm). That seems to correspond to my own flow bench results, the heads flowed quite well up to about that point.

Valve lift is one of the easiest ways to gain airflow with the EG33. Even a bone-standard EG33 head gains ridiculous airflow with larger valve lifts. Going from .250" lift to .475" lift will net a 35% gain in intake port flow, and a 20% gain in exhaust port flow.

If the stillborn rally-prepped 'EG38' ever gets built for my other friend Andrew, I can assure you the valve lift will be nearer to .550" than to Jack's .444"/.460" combo. And those cams will be billet with adjustable cam gears.

[Dessertrunner]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

Jack's cams were welded and reground by Web Camshafts.

Frank Aragona's original camshafts were also welded/reground by Web, however right around the time he found the stock crankshaft's limits, he said the cams started to become an issue.

Frank's later generation cams were custom billet pieces. While he wouldn't give me the exact specs, he did say valve lift was around .550" (13.97 mm). That seems to correspond to my own flow bench results, the heads flowed quite well up to about that point.

Valve lift is one of the easiest ways to gain airflow with the EG33. Even a bone-standard EG33 head gains ridiculous airflow with larger valve lifts. Going from .250" lift to .475" lift will net a 35% gain in intake port flow, and a 20% gain in exhaust port flow.

If the stillborn rally-prepped 'EG38' ever gets built for my other friend Andrew, I can assure you the valve lift will be nearer to .550" than to Jack's .444"/.460" combo. And those cams will be billet with adjustable cam gears.

Thanks for that Bob,

After Frank finished with the engine what ever happen to it. I was wondering if he parted the car out and we could buy the crank. Or failing that we could find out were he got it made to get a price for one.
Tony

[bazza]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

Jack's cams were welded and reground by Web Camshafts.

Frank Aragona's original camshafts were also welded/reground by Web, however right around the time he found the stock crankshaft's limits, he said the cams started to become an issue.

Frank's later generation cams were custom billet pieces. While he wouldn't give me the exact specs, he did say valve lift was around .550" (13.97 mm). That seems to correspond to my own flow bench results, the heads flowed quite well up to about that point.

Valve lift is one of the easiest ways to gain airflow with the EG33. Even a bone-standard EG33 head gains ridiculous airflow with larger valve lifts. Going from .250" lift to .475" lift will net a 35% gain in intake port flow, and a 20% gain in exhaust port flow.

If the stillborn rally-prepped 'EG38' ever gets built for my other friend Andrew, I can assure you the valve lift will be nearer to .550" than to Jack's .444"/.460" combo. And those cams will be billet with adjustable cam gears.

Quick question Bob. I recall you mentioned the valves were close to interfering when using the original cams (welded) with their original centrelines.

Would you see any issue running similar to a Porsche GT3 cam profile (270-300 spec duration / 12 mm lift) made from custom billet cams? Ignore the IRIS valve.

[Dessertrunner]

Well struck a problem with the dry sump, 2 of the suction pump get supplied from each head. Problem is there is only 30mm from the rocker cover to the side of the engine bay. In other words I had planned to install the suction hose in the side of the rocker cover now it will have to be in the base which will be far more complicated due to the narrowness of the rocker cover.
Still haven't got my head around it but will see what develops.

Also time to start working out were the extra oil is going to go, currently the drill in the oil galleries etc is only capable of handling 56l per minute so I need twice the flow throught the bearings etc. I had a look at the cam oil porting and I think they need to be increase. Also of concern is that one of the beaings on the ehaust cam does't get supplied with oil so I will need to find a way around that problem.

Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Project update,

Things have developed on this project as it turns out Bazza lives only 1 1/2 hours away from me so we have cut a deal together to develop this enigne as a joint project. He has plenty of experiance and contacts with Subaru engines abd cars. As a result of this agreement I feel confident that we can speed the project up.

Right now he and I are sorting out the steps and look of the first engine we will build up.

A interesting problem developed with the dry sump. I am using a Dailey Pump and was get parts from Bill when he found out I was building a dry sump for the EG33 he cut off my parts supply so now I have to get them from ebay when I can find them. Pretty stupid as I am not in competation with him but thats the way he feels.

Tony

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Project update,

Things have developed on this project as it turns out Bazza lives only 1 1/2 hours away from me so we have cut a deal together to develop this enigne as a joint project. He has plenty of experiance and contacts with Subaru engines abd cars. As a result of this agreement I feel confident that we can speed the project up.

Right now he and I are sorting out the steps and look of the first engine we will build up.

A interesting problem developed with the dry sump. I am using a Dailey Pump and was get parts from Bill when he found out I was building a dry sump for the EG33 he cut off my parts supply so now I have to get them from ebay when I can find them. Pretty stupid as I am not in competation with him but thats the way he feels.

Tony

I have no idea who "Bill" is, but if there is any way that I can help, please let me know.
Tom

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

I have no idea who "Bill" is, but if there is any way that I can help, please let me know.
Tom

Bill I'm assuming is Bill Daily, who makes a dry sump kit for the EG33: http://www.daileyengineering.com/sub...6_cylinder.htm

Does anyone know how much a kit just bought directly from him would cost? Or how much the EJ ones cost?

[Dessertrunner]

Hi Tom,
Its Bill Dailey the owner, I appricate your help. I got some parts on Ebay last week which should get me throught for now. I will let you know in the future.
Thanks.

Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Here is the info I got from Bill, before the relationship dried up.

racer is $3555

this is not a simple plug and play system. You will have be qualified in custom fabrication work to modify the motor. headers are one of the issues with clearance across the front of the motor to my drive pulley setup. there are 2 fittings on the pan that need to be connected to the valve covers so you will need to add -10 fittings to the valve covers. If can deal with this the rest is easy. where are you located. I dont have suppliers for this system yet so you will be on your own for fitment.

And the follow up

I have only sold 2 of the 6 cyls and they are still in final assembly so I have no good info on them. look on the web for wayne mumford and see if you can find out what he is up to. he just bought a second system and sending it off to the uk to another customer.

I have sold many of the 4 cyl systems into australia so you should be able to find someone who has gone thru the motions as it is basically the same. contact pulse racing and ben creswick to see if they can lend some support. more than likely they will want to source it for you as well and make a buck. just a nature of the game.

stock internal pump is simply removed. the oil pump housing just becomes a crank seal holder.

remove the stock oil pan and replace it with mine. install the pump. replace the tensioner pulley with mine that bolts to the face of the water pump. you remove the bearing and install in my pulley. you will have to bore a hole in the plastic front for my pulley to extend thru. install the pulley on my pump and belt. off you go. after you address the headers and fittings on the valve covers.

ask around in the subaru world down there. cant be that much of a secret with as many as I have sold.

Then later I suggested that his would not work for me as I needed to drive it off the crank and that's when he comes back suggesting that one of the guys is removing the existing pump and driving direct off the front of the crank like I plan to do.

At that point relationship ended.

Can I say that with higher lifting Cams etc, a engine doing 10k there is no way in the world the timing belt can then drive the oil pump. I think he was confused but if you drive it from the front of the water pump it will be all over.

Thus ends my experiance with Bill Dailey due to the lack of responce.

Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Looked at the oil path in the engine and I need to do some major mods to get more oil throught the system. My plan is to measure what the oil galleries can take in terms of flow at the different pressure.
I am considering drilling in a second oil hole to each bearing on the crank on the opposite block to the one that has it now.

The only problem is that the right side of the crankcase top oil gallery goes from the front of the block to the back. Which means we can drill down with new oil galleries but on the left this the galley stops after the #4 bearing, which means I am short of being able to do what I want on the back 3 bearings.

THis leaves only a couple of choices create a exterinal oil gallery or forget it. Need to give it more thought.

Will post a image of the oil paths from the manual when we have a chance.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Matt's friend Mark has just pointed me in the right direction with a quick lesson on fliud dynamics.

To get more oil into the bearing with out altering the current oil galleries if we assume current data (Which I think Barry proved was not correct) is,

56lpm at 5,000rpm and 45psi

Our maxium target flow is 145lpm to get that level I would have to increase the pump pressure to 305 psi.

So if anyone had any further doubt that we need to mod the oil galleries this should clear it up, can you imagine the amount of HP required to drive the pump at that pressure.

Have a great day.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Big factor is lost power to run pump, so here is the calc.

flow (in gpm) times pressure (in psi) all divided by 1714, gives Hp to run pump.

so existing pump at 5,000 rpm using Subaru details,
14.8gpm times 43 psi divided by 1714 using .37hp to drive it.

If the existing pump is used to run at 10k pumping;-
29.6gpm the pressure will go from 43 to 172psi feed this data in to the orignal equation,
29.6gpm times 172psi divided by 1714 gives 2.9hp needed.

So in simple terms the standard EG33 pump would need to stand 7.8 times the drive power. There is no way the current design pump can stand that load.

Run the new pump standard oil galleries,
engine at 10k pump doing 7.5k
41.25 gpm at 305psi divide by 1714 means we need 7.3 hp to drive it
If we get the pressure back by drilling the ports on the block to 50psi,
41.25 gpm at 50psi divided by 1714 means we need 1.2 hp to drive the pump.

Okay so we can live with the last number 1.2hp is okay just need to figure out how to redrill the block.
Tony

[SVXRide]

Tony,

Yeah, 305 psi isn't going to cut it

Looking forward to what you come up with regarding the drilling.

-Bill

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Big factor is lost power to run pump, so here is the calc.

flow (in gpm) times pressure (in psi) all divided by 1714, gives Hp to run pump.

so existing pump at 5,000 rpm using Subaru details,
14.8gpm times 43 psi divided by 1714 using .37hp to drive it.

If the existing pump is used to run at 10k pumping;-
29.6gpm the pressure will go from 43 to 172psi feed this data in to the orignal equation,
29.6gpm times 172psi divided by 1714 gives 2.9hp needed.

So in simple terms the standard EG33 pump would need to stand 7.8 times the drive power. There is no way the current design pump can stand that load.

Run the new pump standard oil galleries,
engine at 10k pump doing 7.5k
41.25 gpm at 305psi divide by 1714 means we need 7.3 hp to drive it
If we get the pressure back by drilling the ports on the block to 50psi,
41.25 gpm at 50psi divided by 1714 means we need 1.2 hp to drive the pump.

Okay so we can live with the last number 1.2hp is okay just need to figure out how to redrill the block.
Tony