Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine. - Page 7

svxfiles · #91 06-14-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Tom that is interesting data, what it says is that what ever you do to increase pump flow the pressure release will release. He need to take that knowledge on board and be clear what it means.
Tony

To keep a level playing field,
I ported the pump that was in my Claret.
This way the pump has the same wear, use and now,
IF there is a differance we will learn somthing,
maybe.

After an overnight drying period,
(so that the Gray sealer does not travel into any passages),
I will disconnect the injectors,
spin the engine untill oil pressure builds,
then start it and report back.

Naturally I am changing other things, like adding a modified timing belt guide, relocated idler pulley bracket, machined pulley/roller, different crankshaft pulley, etc. to support another project.

Dessertrunner · #92 06-18-2012, 06:07 PM

Alum for the sump arrived, waiting on the pump then should be able to complete the design for the dry sump.

Bob,
How many HP was that EG33 drag car developing? Do you know what they did in relation to oil pump?

Have be thinking through Harvey's point about the back bearing failure. This might sound crazy but I am going out on a limb here and say that the behaviour of oil might be simlar to water.

At work we have big irrigators, 1 a mile long and when they are stater up the air and rubish in the line goes to the end before its relaesed. For some reason the air dosn't come out part way along.
The oil circut in our engine might behave in the same way if any air gets into the pumping system its point of exit might be the last bearing.

Also given the points people have made I was thinking
"Why change the pump?"
just design a better sump that won't allow air to get in the suction then I remembered this,

Figure I better continue with Bazza's and install a dry sump.

When you step out of the normal you need to keep reminding yourslef why so you don't go around in circles.
Have a good day all.
Tony

oab_au · #93 06-18-2012, 06:26 PM

When we had the pump break in the Nissan, I look at the way the pump was driven. It doesn't have a rotational drive to it, like a spline or key would give. The crank has two flats on the shaft, that produces an outward thrust on the rotor, as the load increases the outward thrust expands the rotor till it breaks, unfortunately that is the way they did it, no other options.
Too much load, pump breaks.

Harvey.

Dessertrunner · #94 06-18-2012, 07:42 PM

Thanks Harvey,,
It was buging me as to why the pump in the picture broke, for the hell of me I couldn't figure it out, makes sense only 2 points to transfer the load from crank shaft to pump. My bet is that if you shim the blow off valve to raise pressure it will turn all bad as the problem will get worse.

Tony

bazza · #95 06-19-2012, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Thanks Harvey,,
It was buging me as to why the pump in the picture broke, for the hell of me I couldn't figure it out, makes sense only 2 points to transfer the load from crank shaft to pump. My bet is that if you shim the blow off valve to raise pressure it will turn all bad as the problem will get worse.

Tony

Yeah poor old Andy's oil pump haha, 1000+ hp. He now runs the Dailey pump setup as above. In fact it would seem everyone with any credability runs one - most V8 supercars... etc

Anyway I forgot about these emails from the man (Bill Dailey):

------------------

The original pump you gut the internal pressure gears out of it. so it just becomes a seal retainer.

I have not made anything for it but yes, you feed the oil filter inner threaded spud. I think someone makes it so I have not. you can either use a block off plate with a -12 feed and I have seen some you use a filter sandwich plate as if you were installing a cooler from the stock oil pump. you just cap off the outlet port and feed back into it. it then feeds thru the filter and into the motor. the block off plate you have go thru an external filter first. no right or wrong way just preference.

oi cooler goes on high pressure side of pump. if you cool the scavenge oil without and air separator it takes about 3 time the cooler capacity because you are cooling foam.

oil tank is same scenario with no right or wrong. larger tanks are better for a bigger buffer but heavier. I like the 2.5 gallon tank that is small diameter and tall as a good compromise.

I do recommend a scavenge filter of 75 micron from the scavenge outlet of the pump back to the tank. I have screens in the pan to protect the pump. this filter protects the tank and likewise the pressure side of the pump. then you plumb a typical spin on style 15 micron filter before the motor to protect the bearings. again this the no right or wrong just what I think is best.

------------------

stock oil pump is the same issue most production engines chase. it is a gerotor oil pump running at engine speed on the nose of the crank. so the faster you spin it the worse it behaves. a good analogy is put a ball valve on the inlet to the pump. the faster you run the motor the more you close the valve. not a good scenario. What happens is the inlet to the pump cavitates and boils the oil. the pump passes hot oil gasses instead of pumping oil. result is pressure loss. Most chase a less costly solution for a dry sump and only add a scavnege pump thinking it is oil starvation of air into the pump. problem is if you dont throw the stock oil pump away you will never fix the problem. A good example of that is the ls7 corvette engine. not only do they still use the same gerotor for the pressure they just added one for the scavenge. so problem on both sides when running at sustained high rpm. I only make systems that I know will fix a problem and is usually deemed a high end cost wise. but you wont blow up any more motors. And to me that seems less expensive in the long run.

------------------

IMO this guy is the god of dry sump setups and if I had the coin I'd buy his setup in a second. However I don't so I've got to make my own

Dessertrunner · #96 06-19-2012, 03:37 AM

Great read just need to buy a Dailey and you will be part of the way.

Behind the pump is a port just don't know were it goes to.

Tony

RallyBob · #97 06-19-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Alum for the sump arrived, waiting on the pump then should be able to complete the design for the dry sump.

Bob,
How many HP was that EG33 drag car developing? Do you know what they did in relation to oil pump?

475 hp on an engine dyno. Remember though, per the NHRA rules he converted it to run a distributor and twin 500 cfm Holley 2-bbl carburetors. No EFI or crank trigger allowed.

Not sure on the oiling (never asked), but given that he was running mid 8's it didn't have to last long....

Dessertrunner · #98 06-22-2012, 06:48 AM

Okay oil pump has arrived, a couple of issues that I hadn't considered are now need to be addressed.
The direction of rotation is the opposite to the current engine as it stands. I am not sure if this is advantage or disadvantage till I sort out the pump flow rate per rev then calc revs required.
First look at it I figure no way it was going to fit but that seems to be taking shape.

Will get stuck into the CAD and try to complete the design in the next 2 days. I think it will look good.
Tony

Dessertrunner · #99 06-23-2012, 02:34 AM

I little info,

Was looking at the Dailey Pump web site and they were taking about the new series pumps for NASCAR's. The interesting thing is that they say there new pumps can runn up to 10,000rpm for short periods or 7,500rpm for long term. So you ask what is the big deal, well.

A gear pump can run higher revs then a lobe pump if Dailey say there pump is only good for 7,500 rpm continous then you can forget about the standard SVX pump standing anysort of punshiment. One reason Subaru used a lode pump is that it is less likly to lose prime as the engine gets older. Gear pumps can be hard to prime if they sit for a while and get a bit of age.

Tony

Dessertrunner · #**100** 06-23-2012, 02:14 PM

I think this point by Matt wrongly went with out comment. The point or direction Matt makes is more important then any of us figured.

Quote:

Have I mentioned before that MSR and others do fly cut oil galleries. I'm no engine builder, but I understand the oil gallery in either the bearing or the crank case is a vertically drilled hole...whereas, if you grind the hole one way (I realise without a picture this is probably useless) it encourages oil to flow out and around teh bearing or crank.

has anybody else heard of this?

I'll see if i can dig up a picture.
M

So if we take this point further what we know is,

- Big End bearing are most likly to fail on the engine.
- Talking to Bazza if I understood him correctly, he said that the WRC guys cross drill the crank to get more oil to the conrod bearing. The aim is to get oil into the bearing in diffent positions.
- He also mentions that some guys drill the crank in 4 spots around the jurnal to keep the bearing lubed.
- That none of us have really looked at the oiling in the crank region close enough to compare it to what is done on the high rev high hp engines.

So we need to open this topic up to discuss what we can do. Has anyone got info from other engines that maybe of use in this project.

What do other guys do? What do they do on NASCARS?
Tony

Tony

Dessertrunner · #**101** 06-23-2012, 02:28 PM

Also the rods need to have oil holes to feed the small end.

Also it interesting they cool the underside of the piston with oil.

Other images on the web site show the cross drill crank.

Tony

Dessertrunner · #**102** 06-23-2012, 02:43 PM

I have done some quick read and I think we need more time spent on Matts point.
Note the image inthis artcial on STI rod bearings. They have a oil grove on the big end if I am understanding it correctly.
Tony

http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/c...aring-set.html

Tony

Dessertrunner · #**103** 06-23-2012, 09:50 PM

This video is to help build my confidence. Should make me feel better.
Tony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABTBKH53RVA

SilverSpear · #**104** 06-23-2012, 11:56 PM

Keep up the good work Tony

Dessertrunner · #**105** 06-24-2012, 04:13 AM

Prototype dry sump, its only a concept design to work through the issues of mounting the pump. Need to keep in mind that a suction has to come from each rocker cover that is why I have put the well in such a way. Since this design I have come up with a slight difference that will reduce the distance the pump sits below the engine.

Issues that are a challenge:-

- Could drive the the pump from the timing belt but I feel that the belt has enough strain just driving the cams especially is the value lift is increased.
- Could build a new crank pulley since the AC is not used but this would mean the pump has to go forward to far or the shaft on the pump would have to be extended. This is possiable and the simplest still requires the pump to be cut up.
- Next choice more complicated but best is to remove pump cut sense part off pump. Make new sealplate to move it back against the block. Get the crank front machined so a pulley can be fitted behind the timing belt sprocket and that will drive the pump.
- If the last option is chosen then I will need to create pockets for the head suction lines. (will explain later).

I will run a few cads and see how they all look.
If you look close at the picture you can see the gape behind the cramk pulley were the pulley can fit.
Tony