TURBOs!?

[bazza]

.......................

[BackWoodsBob]

Thanks for the insults .

I never claimed to be an expert, but thanks for the advice jackass.

[bazza]

...............

[BackWoodsBob]

Originally Posted by bazza

Have a look at what you've said thus far:
* You have no tuning experience yet you want to run an ECU that may cause detonation and destroy your setup.
* You want to run the stock cams that pull to about 5500 - 6000 rpm before falling over. They need regrind etc to get them to go to 7500 rpm and keep pulling.
* You want to run a small turbo that will run out of puff at 4000 rpm and be undriveable due to being to responsive.

Take a step back and think about it. As I said it is far better if you spend the coin and learn - to many people research, think they know and then build a disaster - seen it a hundred times on numerous forums I spend time on. Far better to build up to a "full on" build with small steps over time because you'll then understand everything properly and from this you'll end up with a far better result.

As for a the turbo hitting full boost at 3750 rpm... boost is a measure of restriction... not power. My setup for example makes more power than a stock SVX @ 3100 rpm (and we know how nice the SVX pulls) and the turbo is at 3-4 psi, nowhere full boost of 15 psi.

Like I said, point me to the thread or post, or website where a discussion based on turbo cams for the EG33 is on-going or has gone on. I'll gladly read.

The only ecu I want to run is the stock setup, tuned by LAN. So, not sure where you thought I was running a different ecu at.

Weird about the turbo, I've asked several people with tuning experience after explaining my goals, they have said that a GT30r would work, but would have very little overhead compared to a GT35r, but that for my application it would be great.

I'm all for learning, which is why I stalk Harvey's past posts .

I have no intention of wasting money, so if you have knowledge to enlighten me with, do it. If not, leave me alone and I'll fall from the nest, get back up and flap my happy ass to clearer sky's.


*edit*
After doing some more reading in the cam threads. Utilizing the iris valve with stock cams would achieve my goal. As far as making power at 7k rpms. Well, I'll save that for the rebuilt EG33 I plan on doing this coming summer. At that point, I'll have enough for custom cams and such.

My desired RPM range will be from 5000-7000 rpm. Aiming for a very flat torque curve and an increasing power curve... similar to Porsche GT3's:

That's a post by you, and after watching your track day video, our goals are different. My desired power increase is from 3000,+ rpm. I'm not shooting for the moon power wise, neither RPM wise on this stock block.

[bazza]

..................

[oab_au]

What has been shown over the years, that the turbo has been tried on the EG33, is that its the exhaust pipes that cause it to die at 5000.

The early ones used or copied a kit that was around at that time. This kit had the two engine pipes joined together then going to the turbine. This caused interference between the cylinders so that a cylinders overlap would be pressured by the exhaust pressure from the previous cylinder.

The fix was to run the two engine pipes right up to the turbine before they joined. When this was done the engine ran up the range OK.

This is the problem with turbos on a six cylinder engine, and why twin turbos are the go on sixes.

Harvey.

[bazza]

...................

[BackWoodsBob]

Originally Posted by bazza

The issue with the stock ecu with a chip is it will blow up unless Mike sits on the dyno and custom tunes it for you. In reality you need a full after market ecu and a proper tune from top to bottom.

You did originally say you wanted power to 7500 rpm?!!

I'm not sure why Mike would have his chip rated at up to 500hp then.... wouldn't that be false advertising?

The Stage 2 package enables engine management for close to 500hp output, opening the doors for engine modifications and forced induction systems such as turbochargers and superchargers

That's quoted directly from LAN's site. I understand pushing that high would require internals, duh.

Originally Posted by oab_au

What has been shown over the years, that the turbo has been tried on the EG33, is that its the exhaust pipes that cause it to die at 5000.

The early ones used or copied a kit that was around at that time. This kit had the two engine pipes joined together then going to the turbine. This caused interference between the cylinders so that a cylinders overlap would be pressured by the exhaust pressure from the previous cylinder.

The fix was to run the two engine pipes right up to the turbine before they joined. When this was done the engine ran up the range OK.

This is the problem with turbos on a six cylinder engine, and why twin turbos are the go on sixes.

Harvey.

Interesting. I haven't heard of that issue before. My plan is to remote mount, which is why I've chosen the GT30R. Being that far from the engine the exhaust gasses are cooler, more dense but also not expanding any more.

I want the instant punch of boost, so going larger than an GT35r remote mount would be pretty dumb imho. I guess when the time comes I'll have to sit on the phone with garrett and talk...

[dragoontwo]

Originally Posted by BackWoodsBob

I'm not sure why Mike would have his chip rated at up to 500hp then.... wouldn't that be false advertising?

This is because the MAF he has the stage 2 chips calibrated to run on can only flow enough air for up to 500 HP.

[BackWoodsBob]

If I ever want to push that high it will be with a fully built engine. Thanks for the post!

[icingdeath88]

500 hp is unrealistic for one of LAN's stage 2 chips. The 370cc injectors ought to max out at (recalling from memory here) just under 400 hp. Maybe can squeeze out a bit more if you bump up the pressure with an adjustable FPR.

The stage 3 chip used two MAFs and 550cc injectors and could do 500 hp probably.

But you are definitely better off going with a standalone, that is tuned for the specific engine/setup you have. Much safer to run it that way too.

[bazza]

.........................

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by bazza

This is incorrect.

That would be right, I make a statement of fact, you tell me “This is incorrect.” then go on and tell us how a different engine runs, accompanied by a lot of irreverent stuff that tells me that you obversely don’t understand how the system works, so I will be nice and explain it to you.

When the two engine pipes are connected close to the manifolds, the cylinders on each side are pressurising the exhaust system every 120*. This means that when a cylinders exhaust valve opens to evacuate its cylinder at 60* BBDC, and the piston has progress to 60* ABDC, the next cylinder opens its exhaust valve to push gas into that cylinder.

This can be handled as the piston will push this gas back out the exhaust port, and as long as the boost pressure is higher than the exhaust pressure it will continue to induct air/fuel and keep running. But as the rpm and boost pressure, and exhaust volume rises, the exhaust pressure exceeds the boost, and the piston then pushes the exhaust gas into the inlet manifold to foul the charge, and the engine goes flat.

To prevent this we have to have the engine pipes long enough before they join, so that by the time that gas gets to the next cylinder, its exhaust valve has closed and it is not affected.

It is this fact that makes car designers to use two turbos on a six. If they were to use the long engine pipes that a single needs, they would loose too much energy from the gas. Mounting one on each pair of three exhaust manifolds has the highest energy applied to the turbine, with no interference.

Now looking at what you have said.

“Perrin for example with their H6 made power to 6000-7000 rpm with they're turbo setup. I modelled my original headers off theirs and the EG33 only made increasing power to 4500 rpm and got worse as boost went up. I've also tried three different design of extractors pipe with the merge moving with no real change in peak rpm. Perin however increase their power all the way to 6-7K at more boost that what I'm running.

Here you are trying to copy a different engines system and apply it to the EG33. Then wondering why it didn’t work.

Further a quote from Perrin talking about his turbo H6 setup: ".. and at 5500 the car came to life! It was a little scary, kind of like a huge turbo with big lag."

The kick at 5500 rpm was when they turned on the AVLS (Subaru VTEC) which proves without a doubt that the stock EG33 cam is not up to the task
and is exactly why I had mine reground to suit better flow at high rpm.

So here you are you are going to copy the cams of a different engine without knowing why. I do wonder if Perrin knew.
If you looked into this engine you would have found that the inlet cam timing up to 5000 is, Opens 47* BTDC closes 23* ABDC.
This timing will only make the situation worst, as with the inlet valve open so early, the piston will push the gas back into the inlet manifold. When the cam goes to retard, the inlet valve timing is, Opens 3* ATDC, Closes 73* ABDC.
With this timing the exhaust valve closes as the inlet opens, so the interference will not happen.
So it is no wonder that the engine started to work at 5000, but you in your wisdom have decided that it was just a case of using a longer duration, so you will copy that, with out knowing what it is all about.

Plus then you look at the specs compared to a stock WRX or STI cam the stock EG33 cam just doesn't have it in terms of lift and duration. It's fine for the IRIS valve and NA mode but no good when you strap a turbo to it and want it to pull to 7000 rpm.

Phil did ok with standard cams.

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

E85 and 15lbs of boost. It is ridiculous. No knock and more power you could ever dream of. Slow burning so less tensile pressure than gasoline and cool at RBT. No need to build a motor for thousands of dollars with this kind of performance and torque.

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

unbelievable.....it pulls to redline as it should. its running about 11.7:1 in the upper rpm range
Phil

These are the Perin extractors. This is version 2 which pulled even higher. Version 1 merged earlier and you are right in some respect as they did pick up about 250-500 rpm of peak power compared to version 1 which merged in front of the engine - however if this was extractor alone or due to tuning we don't know - Jeff did say he was always gaining over the months as it was tuned and refined and it was only later when they enabled the AVLS. However based on what you said they should've only made power to low rpm with the version 1 and a heap more rpm with version 2 - this was not the case.

Well if you understand what I have said about the inlet cam timing, you can see why it started to work.

Also the reason people put twin turbos on EG33 is because the engine bay won't fit a GT42R or bigger turbo at the back of the engine without a major headache - far easier to run two small turbos and the other reason is the firing order suits twin turbos whereas the EJ2X has a different firing order which makes TT'ing them nasty.

Well, BMW, Toyota, Mercedes, etc, must know that the firing order on a six is different.

Harvey.

[bazza]

.......................

[oab_au]

I don’t want to mislead anyone.

The first turbo that was on the net was Chucks on yahoo around 99. This had the problem of the engine going flat and the manifold boost pressure spiking, there was another one but can't remember who. Years later when Phil was going to do his, we were talking about it on a thread, and he said that he was going to do his, with the two engine pipes going right up to the turbine.
The result was his Quote, that I posted.

“E85 and 15lbs of boost. It is rediculous. No knock and more power you could ever dream of. Slow burning so less tensile pressure than gasoline and cool at RBT. No need to build a motor for thousands of dollars with this kind of performance and tourqe.
unbelieveable.....it pulls to redline as it should. its running about 11.7:1 in the upper rpm range.”

Both of these engine were basically stock, the different header pipes made the difference, and yes I based my Fact on that, but it was factual enough for me.

As for the rest, you say “Now the EZ30 and the EG33 run the EXACT same firing order. They run the same port design intake and exhaust and the engines are VERY similar.”

The EZ30 is very similar, the same inlet manifolding, same valve timing, but you show a picture of a EZ30R engine that has the variably valve timing. This is the engine that Perrin is using. Nothing like manifolding or the fixed valve timing of the EZ30 or EG33.

So when you go telling people, “that they don’t know anything and to learn from you”??

Harvey.