Concerning the Movie About Islam

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by Huskymaniac

There is a lot of fail in this thread. Some good...but a lot of fail.

Talking politics or religion on a message board is futile due to the lack of time to type what really needs to be said and the complexity of the subject. And then, in some cases, you have stupid people trying to talk about something they can't possibly comprehend.

Time? Time is the one thing that equalizes people on the internet. Anyone can take as much time as they need to draft an argument, cite sources, and consider rebuttals before ever submitting a post. Public debates where speaking time is handled by a moderator and runs less than a day, minutes-long news casts, and variety hour opinion-based talk shows are where time is a limiting factor.

I don't really believe in stupid people. I live with a person who has an IQ that is nearly half mine, yet when she applies herself she comprehends things well enough. The reason why it seems people are stupid is because it is rare for anyone to define their argument before they present it, so it is subject to various interpretations that can never be resolved.

[jetboy]

Politics and religion and, I guess all topics, debated online all fall prey to polarization. It has been observed and documented since the dawn of the internets.

I think OP is completely justified in posting worries but then he also has to tolerate that everyone doesn't agree. Various messages have been sent, obviously. Some downright racist, some just not what he was looking for.

SilverSpear, there is no love here for your idea, sorry The entire point of freedom of speech and democracy is NOT running anything by the holy fathers before it's released into public. Some day, I'm sure your country (which I think will become a jewel again when Assad influence goes away) will enjoy the same rights. Err, if you're Lebanese, taht is.

[SilverSpear]

Ok, I threw the bomb and looked the other way and waited for your comments to pour over the thread. I just read them all and please bear with me throughout my reply, especially the ones answering Jetboy’s comments. Hope you guys take it in a calm way… remember, we are joined by the love of a unique car

To start with (and this is also information for new comers) , Landshark posted some figures about the Muslim rates in each country. Lebanon is at near 60%. To be exact, Muslim Sunnis at 30.5%, Shia’s at 29.5%, Christians at 35% and Druzes at 5%. I had to divide Sunnis and Shias because they like each other as do Jews and Palestinians [SARCASM].

Let us be totally frank and open in this, in the US people have issues between black and white, even though they never admit it. Please do not tell me that even though your best friend is white and you are black, you wouldn’t have that 0.001% negative feelings about the issue… right? We have the same thing here, I am Christian myself, and most of my friends are Muslims. But deep down inside, I would lean a bit towards a Christian over a Muslim, as you would probably pick someone of your same color over the other.

Point of the above, consider me as an observer of the Middle East situation who has lived and witnessed by his own experiences the bombings, civil wars, Syrian invasions, Israeli invasions on his country. I am no kamikaze Muslim or a Crusader or even a deep Christian believer. I would tend to use better judgement to discriminate right from wrong.

As you guys laugh on the idea of religion being the center of conflict in this part of the world, we laugh too on the issue that skin color is the conflict in the “civilized” part of the world. I lived in Qatar for 5 years and made good friends among its native Qataris. Of them a particular bunch of 3 guys, wealthy, and have nothing to do except enjoying themselves. I should point out one of many friendly incidents involving skin color. They passed by my house one day in a 4 door Mercedes S class and we went to a local mall. Whenever we were leaving, one Qatari with a white skin (owner of the car) threw the keys to the black Qatari and told him: “since you look like a nigga, you are my chauffeur this evening, my bodyguard too and you will have to obey all my commands.” And we all started laughing about it, including the black Qatari.
I think if the case was in the US, the white guy would have been dead by now. Over here it is just stupid…

Pushing the issue further, if I enter to one of your houses and see that you are living in a mess, like a pig and the smell is aweful, do I have the right to beat your *ss because of it? Definitely no. You have your way of life and I have my way of life and the Muslims have their ways of life. I personally laugh at the way rabbis do their hairline, do I have the right to grab the guy and shave his head? No I will respect his beliefs and the way he looks…

With all due respect to Jetboy who is Norwegian with Jewish roots, I think the entire Earth’s problem is revolving around Jews/Palestinians and the Belfor promise. Jetboy, I am sorry man, but the Jews are not peaceful, nor they resort to peaceful solutions. As a matter of fact, our Lebanese experience with them proved they are non-trustworthy and blood-thirsty worse than extremist Muslims. Now I don’t want to start the debate of chicken and egg and more precisely who should occupy the Palestinian/Israeli land, Jews or Palestinians, but I should admit that THE WAY Palestinians are being driven out of their homes is INHUMAN with no regards if they are Christians or Muslims. They are literally living on the streets, most of them given pocket money and a ticket by the Jews to flee the country for good and never return or else they would be driven out by force…

Let us think for a bit… were the Muslims that suicidal before the 1960’s? Have you ever heard of terrorist attacks before these times? I mean before the Jews got backing from the US to drive the Palestinians out of their homes? No. It was the US who created Al Quaeda, it was the US who backed the Jews and fired the Muslim hatred against them and in my opinion it was the US who bombed/caused the bombing of the Mosques in Iraq and erupted a civil war to this day.

Jetboy, one very very good question about the current situation in Syria. If Assad is overthrown, who is the best candidate to assume position in his place? Do you have a name? Or will it just become another Iraq which will eventually extend to Lebanon? Sorry no, I will still prefer Assad for my OWN sake!

Going back to the matters of beliefs and ways of living: According to their religion, Muslims do not believe in a picture of their prophet, and this is sacred to them. Let alone a movie? Well if it was me, I would respect their belief, why mess with it?

I would also like to comment on earlier posts:

“In a perfect world... We would not be occupying Muslim nations and trying to force democracy on them. We would let them do as they please and openly trade with them. Let them run their country as they want. Let them live as they want.. That is absurd…”
Oh come one dude!! Do you really think that the US government is doing this in the name of peace? Really? Let me give it to you directly: Either it is for a strategic location or because of natural resources. Your government doesn’t give a damn about World peace. In fact if there is World peace, your weapons factories would go out of business… Where are the Chemical weapons of Iraq? Where is Peace in Iraq? In Afghanistan? In Libya (well I admit the one good thing you did was overthrowing that maniac off his chair over there). In Iraq is for its natural resources and strategic location near Iran, in Afghanistan is for its resources, Libya for its resources….

“Muslim goes anti west”: Yes because in their belief, the US government should have at least considered finding some sort of compromise with the producer when in fact they simply assigned to him security details. Muslims considered this as US backing that dishonors their beliefs.

“one news agency today (Opinion article) suggested that an all out war in the Middle East would be that best thing for the USA.” Yes that is true.

“It seems to me that there will always be chaos in the Middle East.” Remove the Jews and Palestinians out, and real World peace will prevail.

“a Jesus cartoon isn't going to cause riots and murders, though.” We cherish pictures and movies of Jesus unlike Muslims.

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%”
Yes, Lebanon passed through this, and cases are here and there… But for Qatar it is wrong. The Emir of Qatar instructed that any persecution towards Christians and others, would be dealt with severely even if the offenders are from the Police. It never happened.

“In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.”
Those are the Muslim extremists that were “born” with the Quaeda. They are 99% Muslim Sunnis in origin (as opposed to Iran’s Shias).

Sorry for the looooooong post, had to relay my ideas as a live observer of the situation and not through articles, books, distorted info (sorry Jetboy, I am never wrong, I am living the situation whereas you are simply reading about it from unreliable sources).

And for those you say that Muslims are never overcoming their backward beliefs, I will tell you this: those beliefs are aged from what? 600 AC? Whereas your Negro/Master (sorry for saying it) or Black/White from…. The beginning of life as recorded?

[Huskymaniac]

Originally Posted by jetboy

Politics and religion and, I guess all topics, debated online all fall prey to polarization. It has been observed and documented since the dawn of the internets.

I think OP is completely justified in posting worries but then he also has to tolerate that everyone doesn't agree. Various messages have been sent, obviously. Some downright racist, some just not what he was looking for.

SilverSpear, there is no love here for your idea, sorry The entire point of freedom of speech and democracy is NOT running anything by the holy fathers before it's released into public. Some day, I'm sure your country (which I think will become a jewel again when Assad influence goes away) will enjoy the same rights. Err, if you're Lebanese, taht is.

I never specified who the stupid people were. As such, I never said SilverSpear was one of them nor that I disagreed with him.. The one thing I did say was that it is futile to start a discussion on something this controversial and this complex on a message board. Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

Those who will be at Reading this year will have A LOT to talk about. So much is about to happen over the next six months. Way more than normally happens over a typical six month span. And the effects will linger for several years.

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by Huskymaniac

I never specified who the stupid people were. As such, I never said SilverSpear was one of them nor that I disagreed with him.. The one thing I did say was that it is futile to start a discussion on something this controversial and this complex on a message board. Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

Those who will be at Reading this year will have A LOT to talk about. So much is about to happen over the next six months. Way more than normally happens over a typical six month span. And the effects will linger for several years.

You have exactly hit on the reasons I am staying out of this conversation, even though I have quite a good perspective and a lot to say.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by Huskymaniac

Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

I think you have not been to the right message boards. I've started and carried political and religious discussions hundreds of pages long multiple times with testimonials from spectators and participants alike vouching for their quality. I'm not trying to sell myself here, only help make my point that not only can it be done, but it is far more useful as a resource. A verbal lecture or debate will get nothing done unless given by experts on the subject (do you know any?), and you can get the equivalent of a Powerpoint presentation on Youtube if that is what you want, but either way all you can do is take and compare notes, which is what message boards are for anyway.

A resolution can be found pretty easily if the specific problems are stated and addressed logically, reasonably, and specifically.

Problem: Free speech offends people.
Solutions: Observe your local laws regarding speech, or GFYS.

Problem: Muslims are angry.
Solutions: Identify which Muslims are angry, be their friend or don't.

Problem: Religiously motivated attacks.
Solution: Defeat the religion in whole or in part, or tolerate it and sustain a defense.

Problem: Politically motivated attacks.
Solutions: Defeat the ideology in whole or in part, or tolerate it and sustain a defense.


The extremist Muslims draw the line at the ridicule of their prophet. A "proper" American in my opinion, should draw the line at the Right to Ridicule. Freedom takes precedence over taste, class, and respect. I consider myself a very tolerant, progressive humanist, but I recognize the rights of men to exercise liberty, and there exists no public right to censor criticism and ridicule as censorship is an oppressive act (obviously places like the SVXN which are privately owned and operated can censor whatever they wish).

Now, there are many many reasons why people in the Middle East are angry. Some of them do not like our lifestyles. Some of them do not like our occupation. Some, or I would guess most of them do not like our warfare. In the case of this idiotic movie, some do not like the fact that we do not condemn the people who produced and released it to that area. Do I think they should have made the movie? No. I think it is stupid and in poor taste, but nobody has the right to stop them (despite the fact the director is under investigation by the FBI) and we should hold that line if we recognize Constitutional authority (which I do).

I do not think we should go out of our way to appease anyone at the cost of our rights. Nobody has the right to not be offended, but everyone has the right to be rude, and I assume the mental faculty to consider the consequences of their actions.

So I ask again, what is the real problem here? If you are offended, that is YOUR problem, and your only recourse is to exercise the same rights that were flaunted upon you: complain and ***** about how you are offended. Have you done that? Now you are even.

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

And for those you say that Muslims are never overcoming their backward beliefs, I will tell you this: those beliefs are aged from what? 600 AC? Whereas your Negro/Master (sorry for saying it) or Black/White from…. The beginning of life as recorded?

Overall I like and agree with your post. Racism is still prevalent in U.S. society, which is sad. As a person whom "believes" in the theory of evolution and has an adequate understanding of human ancestry as it is understood by science, I have given up the concept of "race" as it has no part in the science. Homo-sapiens is a species, and I believe all people are capable of the same things to slightly differing degrees.
That said, even I exhibit some "racial" bias, because it is something that has just developed in our culture. I see a lot of black people driving poorly, and comment to my friend about it even though in the back of my mind I know that everyone drives poorly, at some point in their life. Because I am white in this culture, non-white people stick out to me like alien creatures. The emotional part of my brain is curious and judgmental, while the rational part sometimes struggles to keep the emotion in check. The problem is we don't have one culture in the U.S., we have separate demi-cultures in which people of certain-colored skin segregate themselves. Black people are just as much at fault as white people for isolating themselves into their culture bubbles. The demi-cultures themselves aren't the problem, but it's the mentality that by accepting a way of life one somehow becomes superior to others, and this is the real cause of racism in America. We think we are better than everyone else when we are not, and we reject concepts that unravel our culture bubbles for the self-indulgent egotistical snobbery of which they are woven.

[NikFu S.]

There is one more thing I think I should say since it is a bit related.

When I joined the SVXN I knew jack **** about cars, and while the board is a great resource, the fact that it is a resource alone is not what taught me anything.

I endured painful ridicule from members here for the assumptions I made and for the poor arguments that I thought were so cleverly written. Some remained silent and allowed me to say ignorant things, but brave few stood up and corrected me, which motivated me to be the person I am today, an obsessive-compulsive fact-checker and political activist.

I have always believed in the right to speech even at my own expense, but it was only when I realized that the criticisms of me were justified that my behavior began to change.

I do believe that despite its poor production quality and offensive nature, the Innocence of Muslims is a fair criticism of Islam, and you should consider its arguments seriously before you condemn it. A rational and reasonable appraisal in the face of overwhelming adversity is the mark of a mature and educated mind.