Stop allowing republicans to play with our toys!

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by WGJ

lhopp77 et al,


Actions*GAO-06-453T**February 15, 2006
Highlights-PDF PDF Accessible Text

WGJ

This is good info, I didn't know this.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by WGJ

lhopp77 et al,
Your position that 2001 is an exceptional year because of 9/11 does not hold up to scrutiny. Here is a direct quote from the IRS abstract Titled:

Actions*GAO-06-453T**February 15, 2006
Highlights-PDF PDF Accessible Text

"The Internal Revenue Service's (IRS) most recent estimate of the difference between what taxpayers timely and accurately paid in taxes and what they owed was $345 billion.
Underreporting of income by businesses and individuals accounted for most of the estimated $345 billion tax gap for 2001, with individual income tax underreporting alone accounting for $197 billion, or over half of the total gap. Corporate income tax and employment tax underreporting accounted for an additional $84 billion of the gap. Reducing the tax gap would help improve fiscal sustainability."

Intrestingly, there is no mention of an economic impact on taxes because of 9/11. I thought it a good point but nowhere in anything I've read ( numerous GAO and IRS reports) is 9/11 mentioned. That's just a red herring. Please note the term used is 'underreporting' and nothing about lost income due to 9/11.

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE GAO WEBSITE AND TAX GAP ABSTRACT:

http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/summary...T&accno=A46959

So Bush is leaving BILLIONS uncollected and apparently is only now starting to increase the IRS's budget so they can enforce the (insane) tax code. There is more than one mention in both the GAO and IRS reports that a simplified code would improve compliance.

In addition to the red herring fallacy please try avoid these in future:

Plurium interrogationum / Many questions
This fallacy occurs when someone demands a simple (or simplistic)
answer to a complex question.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc:
The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is
assumed to be the cause of an event merely because it happened before that event.
For example: The position that 9/11 was a factor in the 2001 tax gap
study. This was also a red herring.

WGJ

You need to read and think---not just let your hatred for Bush lead you into erroneous conclusions just like the article you quoted by CG Butts. You both blame BUSH for the shortfalls and blame it on his "strong pro corporation/big business leaning"

In the first place lets look at the identified shortfall of $345B for year 2001, I SAY AGAIN 2001. This is Bush's FIRST year in office and no new tax laws were in effect for that year. The laws and IRS regulations were from the Clinton years, but I am not sitting here and blaming it on him. Then lets look at the breakout of that $345B. That figure includes both under reporting AND underpaying. Out of the total figure only $32B is from corporations. The remainder is individuals, employment, estate and excise. Again we DO NOT KNOW how this compares with any prior years. HARDLY AN INDICTMENT AGAINST BUSH FOR HIS "PRO BIG BUSINESS" SUPPORT.

You want an example of more erroneous conclusions or statements from the CQ Butts article--well consider this--"Both the GAO study and the historical record support the conclusion that any benefit working families have received from the Bush tax cuts has been more than offset by the additional tax burden they must bear because corporations no longer pay their fair share of taxes."

Any dummy knows that individuals pay taxes based SOLELY on laws applicable to them and whether or not corporations pay less has no bearing on the individual tax liability. DUMB AND ERRONEOUS STATEMENT.

Again, I agree that the tax code needs to be simplified AND even support a consumption tax versus the current system.

WHAT YOU REALLY SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF THE GAO REPORT WAS NOT THE REASON FOR THE REPORT, BUT IT IS THE MOST FRIGHTENING!!!!!

I will quote "GAOs long term simulations illustrate the magnitude of the fiscal challenges associated with an aging society and the significance of the related challenges the government will be called upon to address. Indeed, the nation's long term fiscal outlook is daunting under many different policy scenerios and assumptions. For instance, under a fiscally restrained scenario, if DISCRETIONARY spending grew only with inflation over the next 10 years and ALL EXISTING tax cuts EXPIRE when scheduled under the current law, spending for SOCIAL SECURITY and health care programs would grow to CONSUME OVER 80 percent of total federal revenue by 2040."

NOW THAT IS SCARY--and IF your recall Bush tried to do something about it with Social Security reform but was stonewalled and blocked by the DEMOCRATS.

Go back and read the total GAO report and THEN come to some more realistic conclusions other than that the tax code needs to be rewritten--which I agree with.

Lee

[lhopp77]

As a area of interest, you might just compare taxes paid for the most recent years by the Bush family and the Kerry family. You will find that the Bush family paid much more in taxes for far less income than the Kerry family. Most of the Kerry family income is protected and hidden, much of it offshore like the Kennedy assests under LAWS passed LONG BEFORE Bush became President.

Lee

[WGJ]

When the studies were done and what Clinton did are TOTALLY irrelevant. Bush has CHRONICALLY UNDERFUNDED the IRS so they can't enforce the laws. Costing the Fed Gov't HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS in revenue directly because the laws have gone unenforced (just like the immigration laws). Combine the 300 BILLION not collected every year since Bush has been in office w/the tax breaks given the wealthiest citizens and you've got HUNDREDS of BILLIONS less income than Bush's gov't is spending.

I REPEAT:
Watched Bush on TV last night laughing at himself. He has lots to laugh at...and even more to cry about. I don't think Bush having a sense of humor brings much comfort to our people in Iraq or Louisiana,Alabama,Mississippi, Florida or New England.

Bush is Commander in Chief. There is a very long list of major f**kups that have happened on his watch, from Iraq to Katrina. If he were the Captain of a ship and ran into a sub or ran aground he would be immediately relieved of command. He should relieve himself of command. He should apologize to the
country and resign, taking Cheney and Rummy with him. I do not know of anyone in a position of authority anywhere in this country that has screwed up a fraction as much and as often as Bush and his admin. and still has their job. Actually many are either in jail or on their way...DeLay et al.
The Enron jerks are going to jail just for stealing money...how many PEOPLE has Bush gotten KILLED and how many BILLIONS pissed away?
Justify his existence...tell me SOMETHING he's done right.

lhopp77,
Respectfully awaiting your response. But try to stay in THIS CENTURY. No more straw man and red herring arguements. And please stop asking me to "think!" If you really want to facilitate a dialogue, present some verifiable facts supporting your position. Show me ANYTHING Bush's has got right and don't bother with his ludicrous attempt at Social Security reform...he shot himself in the foot while trying to shot himself in the head on that one.

WHERE'S OUR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM? At least 45 million people in this country with no health insurance. Medical catastrophe is the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy. How many citizens could you get insured with $300-500 BILLION in taxes uncollected by Bush?
WHY HASN'T BUSH RESIGNED and WHY ISN'T HE BEING IMPEACHED?
WGJ

[Speedklix]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

As a area of interest, you might just compare taxes paid for the most recent years by the Bush family and the Kerry family. You will find that the Bush family paid much more in taxes for far less income than the Kerry family. Most of the Kerry family income is protected and hidden, much of it offshore like the Kennedy assests under LAWS passed LONG BEFORE Bush became President.

Lee

I happen to know for a fact that a certain member of the kerry family employees a large number of people and doesn't make unemployment tax payments and such... I'm not sure of how you would go about determining the value of this persons property, but $100 million would be a good place to start.

I haven't read this thread as I try to avoid all this political junk... but when it takes up soo many lines on the "new posts" screen... Any way. Socialized health care isn't something the republicans are interested in. That was the biggest difference I always saw between the two parties. So I'm not sure why you seem to be saying bush needs to be impeached for a lack of it. Really though it just seems to have been the same message since he won the first election, the reason just sounds different every time. I don't get why everyone has to bicker constantly. Instead of putting soo much effort into complaining at cramming the reasons why they are right and bush is soo wrong down the throats of people that really just don't give ***t and further dividing us.... why not come up with solutions? This is why Kerry wasn't going to get a vote from me. There were no solutions, and the democrat party isn't coming up with any. I'm sorry, but "bush is a lying total loser criminal" just doesn't cut it for me. Want my vote? give me something to vote for. Not reasons why some other guy is wrong.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by WGJ

WHERE'S OUR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM? At least 45 million people in this country with no health insurance. Medical catastrophe is the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy. How many citizens could you get insured with $300-500 BILLION in taxes uncollected by Bush?
WHY HASN'T BUSH RESIGNED and WHY ISN'T HE BEING IMPEACHED?
WGJ

WHERE WAS OUR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM 10 YEARS AGO? 20 YEARS AGO? 100 YEARS AGO? oh yeah, Bush's fault.

[Speedklix]

Originally Posted by Landshark

WHERE WAS OUR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM 10 YEARS AGO? 20 YEARS AGO? 100 YEARS AGO? oh yeah, Bush's fault.

I still clearly remember clinton holding up that card on national television... Guess he should have been impeacehed for the same reason?

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Speedklix

I still clearly remember clinton holding up that card on national television... Guess he should have been impeacehed for the same reason?

its frickin' amazing - people will blame Bush for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.


my lower back is hurting a bit.........i blame GW.

[Electrophil]

Well, there are reasons why dubya has a 60% disapproval rating. Maybe he inherited that from Clinton also. Of course Fox keeps saying he will be "vindicated in History". No... more stuff will come out in history.

A couple of you guys can hold out as long as you want, and say Clinton caused this, and Bush inherited that if you want. But it's not working anymore. It's all flowing down the tubes. He's made way too many horrendous mistakes. The opposing party is just biding time until closer to the election.

This is going to be THE most mud slinging election cycle in the history of our country, and 32% (and dropping) of you will be screaming and crying on how ugly it all is, and how detestable the opposing party is. Of course, the opposing party will be thinking "Flip flop? Swift boat? Fonda shots?" and they will continue as planned, for they have so much ammunition this time around, it's going to be "pick and choose".

The republicans have had since 1994. I'm ashamed to say I was one of those on the band wagon waving that republican flag for change. They blew it. They spent their time battling Clinton over anything they could find, putting out idiotic documentaries on how many administrators have died during Clinton's term, and wasting time over oral sex lies like this really mattered in the scheme of our world. They then went straight into worshipping an idiot and an Industrial crook, sticking straight to the party line instead of using common sense. They blew it.

The country is about to kick them out. For better or worse? Who knows? It's going to take 6 or 7 years just to straighten out the budget now. It's going to hurt extremely bad, and we will all hate them. But is there a choice at this point? Since the debt....not the deficit... but the debt has doubled during Bush's 5 years, we are past the GDP threshold now. It has to be fixed.

When the country kicks them out with an overwhelming majority, we promise to just shrug when the few remaining scream at us that we are soooooooo far left. Pardon us as we say "Fight fire with fire", cause we certainly don't want to be. Being moderate and passive is how our country allowed all this to happen.

Remember the far right and the far left have always went to the extremes, the problem now is the republicans have ticked off the moderates so badly, they've slung them to the far left.

[Antigenus]

.............

[Antigenus]

The funny thing is, a democrat/liberal cant prove anything they believe in works or makes common sense. You basically play on fears of morons, cater to the uneducated and poor and misguide those who are backing your party based on a lifelong affiliation with the democrats party (when the democratic party had conservative views I.E. JFK) just to put yourself in office then you get nothing done and complain republicans are ruining the country and stopping you from saving our country over night with some silver bullet that will solve all the problems of the country. No thanks for me, I enjoy tax cuts, a strong military, CUTTING OF ALL SOCIAL PROGRAMS, hopefully a social security overhaul and shutting down of the borders. I hope today (May 1st=Illegals Walkout Day) results in the firing of 1000's of illegals who refuse to show to work, and hopefully the arrest of more than that. PLEASE KICK THESE LEECHES OUT OF MY COUNTRY. 12 million people cleaning up on every social program we offer = the largest slice of our tax pie in about 5-10 years. If you vote democrat or are a democrat you are simply a fool, you are uneducated and yes you have been used to solely put dems in power that will never do anything for you. I didn't even bother reading half of the mindless blabber and b*tching from the lib(s) above, just enough to annoy me, but this schooling on the basics and most important items is enough to show you whats really important, and if you still don't get it then please just don't vote and cancel the vote of people who make better decisions for you...right? just like the democrats make your decisions? Let me do it for you, I swear you'll thank me.
What is this? Do I see blame on Bush for the gas prices? Please, PLEASE don't tell me youre that stupid. The federal gov't taxes 16 cents on unleaded, and 24 cents on diesel. Subtract that from your local gas price and you will notice that its still OUTRAGEOUS. That because we don't control the price of oil!!! Wow, we barely handle any of our own oil, but we name our own price and then mark it waaay up to hurt our own people and make Bush rich right? Just do some reseach and quit babbling out of your a$$ especially in areas where you are completely misinformed.
Bush isnt my role model either. He spends like one of you liberals. He is too liberal and isn't stiff about the border problem and illegals already here. He is at best a moderate, where o where is my Ronald Reagan when we need him.

[Speedklix]

Originally Posted by Antigenus

He is too liberal and isn't stiff about the border problem and illegals already here. He is at best a moderate, where o where is my Ronald Reagan when we need him

He does have some pretty libral moments, and he isn't my role model either. I generally agree with you on the way it seems that the majority of libral voters are just used for the intrest of the few and at the cost of the majority. I really wish you wouldn't say their opinion doesn't count though, because I feel like that is what they scream all day at everyone that doesn't back them 100%.

To be fair though, we all think it at some point... regaurdless of how we vote.
I really think the big diff between the two really comes down to socialization... all this other stuff everyone complains about everyday, it doesn't matter. It is all just a bunch of nonsense. People selling bs to reach their ends, and others buying into it.

[Antigenus]

I have a hard time listening to the voice of people who want handouts and try and force a society that acts as Robin Hood and trys and spread the wealth of others whethers its through hardwork or family fortune, its YOUR MONEY; no one deserves to touch that, under any circumstance unless its for the following BARE MINIMUMS: 1.) military 2.) public schools (bare operating cost)

Everything else should be privatized. This fosters the proper operating cost, because it makes the enviroment a supply/demand enviroment. This will cut frivolous spending and outrageous misuse of our tax money which is MINE and YOURS, people never see the money and can part with it easily. Imagine actually paying out the hard cash to all these idiots who dont support their kids (save me the crying about they can't succeed) properly so I have to pay for their lunch, I have to pay for your healthcare and my own, I pay for your foodstamps, your afterschool care, then I have a teacher who *****es when shes paid $40,000 after a few years, full health/dental, and works 9 months at most out of an entire year. Seriously F off. I can on and on and on about the travisty the democrats did to this country, and our society only needs the government for protection. The private hardworks will always flurish, will always beat the suppression the liberals enact on them, and hopefully extinct this disease we call liberalism.

FYI - I heard a rancher talking about having a hardtime hiring illegals in texas to do construction labor for $15 an hour fulltime. If illegals can find a job for $15/hr and you cant support your kid, you are pathetic and should be neutered.

[Speedklix]

Funny. While reading your post I started recalling how this country grew.

BTW, you wouldn't want to know how much some teachers I know make here. (it is a little more)

[lhopp77]

Noncollection and nonpayment of taxes IS a problem. But, I am sure that nearly everyone on here that itemizes or has any type of cash income has over reported deductions and under reported income.

HOW IS BUSH TO BLAME FOR THAT??

Again we do not know by comparison to other years the significance of this 2001 since a study like this has not been done since 1988. Below is another finding included in the GAO reports and congressioanl testimony that indicates that it has been a growing problem over the years and not attributable to the much hated and maligned GW Bush.

"Enforcement. The IRS should dedicate more resources to enforcement, including auditing and collecting taxes that are owed. IRS audits of high-income individuals have dropped dramatically over the past decade. The audit rate for face-to-face audits fell from 2.9 percent of high-income tax filers in fiscal year 1992 to 0.38 percent in fiscal year 2001 and then drifted down to 0.35 percent in fiscal year 2004. At the same time, less in depth correspondence audits have rebounded since fiscal year 2001."

Hardly an indictment on Bush. Note the reductions during the Clinton years.

It might be worth it to note here that $55B of the "estimated" $345B shortfall has already been collected and collections continue.

An interest statement concerning the problem included in the IRS report.

"The largest source of the tax gap is the “cash economy,” taxable payments that are not required to be reported to the IRS by third parties. Employers, for example, send W2 forms to the IRS to report the wages paid to their employees, and banks and financial institutions send 1099s to report interest, dividends, and proceeds from the sale of financial assets. But payments to contractors and tips, for example, only need to be reported by the recipient of the payment. As Olson explains, “Where taxable payments are reported to the IRS by third parties, the IRS generally collects well over 90 percent of the tax due. Where taxable payments are not reported to the IRS by third parties, compliance drops precipitously to a range from about 20 percent to about 68 percent, depending on the type of transaction.”[3] In particular, the noncompliance rate ranges from 1 percent for wages, salaries and tips to 57 percent for small business income and 72 percent for farm income."

Again, we are primarily talking about individuals, small companies and farms owned by individuals or small partnerships. Not big business.

Now quit blaming Bush for every ill or perceived ill in our great country. Stand up and tell me---that you have never cheated by a dollar on reporting your deductions or income? How many of you have made cash money and not reported it????

Lee