Perrin Light Crank Pulley

[Trevor]

Originally posted by Porter



The burden of proof is on you in this case my friend.

(1)
To further return a question volley, answer me this: Show me another company who builds horizontally opposed engines with a crank as short as those built by Subaru.

(2)
BTW, I checked... BMW flat-2 motorcycle engines have no harmonic damper. Including the new ones that rev way higher than the old aircooled beasts. I think the new ones rev to something like 10 or 11 thousand RPM?

Refer (1) What is your point ? How is this relevent ? Why do you ask ? What has to be proven and why ?

Refer (2) Do you consider a twin multi cylinder and an automobile engine ?
N.B. Auto Co was stipulated clearly indicating automobile engines.

[Trevor]

Originally posted by Porter



The burden of proof is on you in this case my friend.

(1)
To further return a question volley, answer me this: Show me another company who builds horizontally opposed engines with a crank as short as those built by Subaru.

(2)
BTW, I checked... BMW flat-2 motorcycle engines have no harmonic damper. Including the new ones that rev way higher than the old aircooled beasts. I think the new ones rev to something like 10 or 11 thousand RPM?

Refer (1) What is your point ? How is this relevant ? Why do you ask ? What has to be proven and why ?

Refer (2) Do you consider a twin multi cylinder and an automobile engine ?
N.B. Auto Co was stipulated clearly indicating automobile engines. Again how is this relevant ?

Originally posted by Trevor


Refer (1) What is your point ? How is this relevant ? Why do you ask ? What has to be proven and why ?

Refer (2) Do you consider a twin multi cylinder and an automobile engine ?
N.B. Auto Co was stipulated clearly indicating automobile engines. Again how is this relevant ?

It's perfectly relevant because the argument I am making is that Subaru engines are relatively unique in their short crank horizontal design, and are far less affected by the torsional problems affecting longer crank designs.

The BMW motorcycle example was EXTREMELY relevant. Their engines are not fundamentally different from that used in a Subaru.. they simply use two cylinders instead of four. They actually output more specific horsepower per liter (and per cylinder), so applied force to the crank is not the issue. It is also a driveshaft-based system, and in general is the most "carlike" of any motorcycle engine currently sold, with the possible exception of the large flat design Honda motorcycle engines, and I believe they lack a harmonic damper as well. I'll have to check on that one.

The point we're trying to make is that with a short crank such as that used by Subaru or BMW, the harmonic problems become less of an issue. At what point do you make the determination as to which cranks are too long for use with a lightened or solid pulley? Obviously it's a case of trial, no amount of paper racing and theoretical wrenching will prove one way or another what will work reliably and what won't.

We have seen no issues on naturally aspirated EJ25 and EJ22 motors. The timing problems seen on the EJ20t WRX can be attributed to a number of things that are fixable, including the poor stock crank angle sensor and an extremely overzealous knock detector that responds unpredictably at best. There are also a few other systems on that vehicle that are involved in the problem, one being a rather interesting factory over-rev protector that tries to detect mid and full-throttle overboost and cuts timing to protect the motor. It's quite possible the accelerated rpm rise resulting from the lightened pulley could trigger that system. I mean, come on... there are people who have timing problems on those motors from all kinds of simple modifications. Remember, there are a number of significant electronic and mechanical differences between the US WRX and overseas models such as those sold in Australia and NZ.

There are a host of possibilities.. certainly too many for your blanket statements regarding the issue and your rigid black and white view of things.


Unless you can show me just ONE example of a Subaru motor that has been damaged or destroyed through the use of a lightweight crank pulley, I am forced to consider your argument on the matter baseless and without merit since you have failed to substantiate your claim.


It's an impossibility to prove any system perfectly reliable... it's a rather easy matter to prove it unreliable. I've given you the easy one.

[GreenMarine]

Woa...Porter, you sound like you really believe in this whole lightweight pully thing don't ya.... Maybe that would be the ideal Mod for me after I get the 5 speed in... it would be lighter at both ends of the crank... That should be good for us 5 speed SVXers!!!!

Originally posted by GreenMarineSVX
Woa...Porter, you sound like you really believe in this whole lightweight pully thing don't ya.... Maybe that would be the ideal Mod for me after I get the 5 speed in... it would be lighter at both ends of the crank... That should be good for us 5 speed SVXers!!!!

It's not that I believe in it so strongly... I don't even have one on my car, nor am I really planning on getting one.

I just detest holier-than-thou attitudes and windy self-congratulatory posts. See Trevor's signature.... we agree on that point at least.

It's not that Trevor and Harvey don't have very good points... on the contrary, their points are excellent by and large. I just don't like their smarmy attitudes and their tendency to pat each other on the back constantly and then refer to the rest of us as "gullible" and "stupid" because we have a simple difference of opinion on something as insignificant as a car part. I find it offensive in the extreme.

[Trevor]

Porter you appear to have got your knickers in a twist.

Please do not read between the lines and make assumptions. This can be a reasonable debate. You must expect robust comment.

We are not being Ò smarmy Ó and any offence you have taken is self induced. It is not our intention to Ò pat each other on the back Ó. In fact in other threads we have opposed each other full on. The fact that we are of fatherly age and use adult language does not mean that it is our intent to patronise. I always read what I have written before posting and never have offence in mind.

You have bent the debate towards the doubts regarding possible engine damage occurring and I agree that there are doubts in this regard but is the risk worthwhile ?

The fact that any worthwhile improvement in performance can be obtained has yet to be PROVEN. Scientific engineering principals show that the claims made are not possible. When statements are made suggesting increased horsepower surely we can be excused for doubting the basis on which claims are being made.

Yes my signature does indicate that I place fact ahead of fiction and it is an honest statement in more ways than one.

So you're choosing to ignore the incredible lack of tact and courtesy on your part when you made the following statements?

originally posted by Trevor

The gullible will always present a lucrative market !!!!

I think we had BOTH best stay out of MOD Mania. By expressing fact we may wind up in very hot water !!!

Dare I say it but I will, "some of the stuff posted here is bloody stupid."

Special regards, Trevor.

Perhaps there's a very real lag in translation between our respective cultural understandings of the English language? It looks to me like you're trying to underhandedly paint everyone who happens to hold a dissenting point of view as both gullible and stupid. I don't believe I'm "reading between the lines". I'm actually reading the lines.


By the way, we agree on most points... of course a lightweight pulley cannot increase horsepower, it is only making it easier for the horsepower produced to rotate the crank by lowering the rotational inertia. A lightweight flywheel (on a manual gearbox vehicle obviously) is far more effective in this regard and is the preferred method. Horsepower can only be modified through some manipulation of either air, fuel, or spark. Personally, I don't see any great benefit in a pulley unless there are no other convenient options for lightening the rotating mass. Lightening the reciprocating mass is the best option, but it is unfortunately out of the range of both affordability and difficulty for most hobbyists.

[Trevor]

Porter,

The Ò statement Ò as you call it was personally addressed to Harvey and therefore was tongue in cheek and should not have been read as offensive. ( You have conveniently neglected to quote it in full )

I DO find some of the stuff posted here, in my opinion, bloody stupid and I reserve the right to say so.

On the basis of your latest statement whereby you agree with what Harvey and I have been saying you must accept that the gullible DO present a lucrative market i.e. the pulley offers no great benefit but it sells.

As was anticipated by expressing fact here I have indeed ended up in hot water.

I regret that you personally have taken offence and therefore I sincerely apologise.

Regards, Trevor *<)

[Chicane]

I didn't find anything offensive. >shrug< I just like a good debate.

Trevor, I have no ill-will towards you whatsoever and I hope you don't read my statements as such... I am merely attempting to point out that a pulley is a very easy modification to make to a motor, it has an immediate noticeable impact on engine acceleration, and is a proven entry-level modification for the casual hobbyist who happens to own a Subaru.

While it does not provide a massive change in acceleration, it is certainly enough to notice, and certainly more than the placebo effect which you seem to be stating.

My point is, if someone puts on a pulley, notices a very real difference in engine response, and drives thousands of miles with no issues whatsoever and seems very happy with the results of the modification and the money spent, then are they really "gullible" as you say?

Do you see why I took issue, and why your statements look both smug and unnecessary, regardless of your intention? Elitism is not a handsome hat to wear, and many Americans tend to react very negatively towards it, perhaps it is in our nature to rebel.


As much as I'd like to agree on principle and relegate lightweight crank pulleys to the corner with the other "rice" mods, I'm forced to disagree based on personal experience and the experiences of my peers both locally and nationally.

[Trevor]

Porter,

My statements were neither Ò smug nor unnecessary Ò and you have yet to prove that perception in regard alleged improvement is fact.

Your reference to Ò elitism Ò is not accepted and as a Kiwi I most certainly rebel against your American sarcasm.

[Chicane]

Oh no! It's the austrailian american war!

(anyone play grand theft auto 3?! hehehe. "I got boomerang shrapnel in mah head!"

"Those aussies are ruthless! They'd wire a kangaroo with explosives, come hoppin' into camp, take out 10 guys!"

Bhahahahha.

Chill out guys.

- Rob

Here, let's make a deal.

I won't question anything you say or take issue with you again, regardless of whether I think it's correct or not...


And in return, you stop making disparaging remarks about those who happen to disagree with you. You are NOT the all-seeing, all knowing oracle, despite what your age and experience may provide in the area of wisdom. It's not that hard to disagree with someone and argue with them constructively without calling them gullible or stupid, etc.


Fair enough?

[GreenMarine]

Ya know what guys, It's just a pully.... That's it.... I think that it would work... I mean companies design these things to work right??? They don't make them thinking "oh I hope that some Subaru owner will put this on his car and blow up his motor" or some stupid crap like that... No They are proven to work... I stand with porter because there were many WRX's at the Dragon that had all sorts of lightening done to them and thier engine parts... The WRX that I rode in all of Friday had a underdrive pully on it.... The guy ran the piss outta it and it still worked fine!!!! So I think it would be a good Idea for us to end the battle, forget that you ever were in a battle and move on.. If you don't agreen then leave the people that do agree alone... Go form another thread called "Arguements over Pullys" or something.... Really, lets not get all worked up over silly little stuff... I understand that I am not really the one that should be talking.... But the thing with blue94svxlsi and I was diffrent... He was just a plain moron that insulted people at a diffrent level... Anyway I just wanted to say, maybe ya'll should kiss and make up... I mean think about it, ya are probably never gonna meet eachother... So why argue over something that is a pure opinion matter????

[Chicane]

It isn't opinion. I've seen dyno runs of a neon with a stock pulley, change pulleys, and another run, and BAM, it made 8 more horses at the wheels. (at the same RPM)

- Rob