Looking for manual AWD car

[Huskymaniac]

We are approaching the time to teach our son to drive. We want to get a third car and one with a stick so we can teach him how to drive a manual. I would like it to be AWD or at least have a limited slip front wheel drive. I would also like it to be able to get out of its own way, but it doesn't need to be a rocket. I am looking for something with less than 125k miles on it and with no major issues or need for body work. If you see something, let me know. I am thinking 2006ish Impreza or WRX, SVX with 5 speed swap, BMW 330xi or 325xi, late 90s Infiniti i30t or g20t, 3000gt v4r or dodge stealth.

[1986nate]

Just an FYI, there are very, very, very few FWD cars with LSD. I can only think of one off the top of my head factory and it's a quite rare car. That being said, I'll keep my eye out. Naturally, I'd ask if you'd consider an Audi, however, I've gotten enough tone to know better They can turn into headaches if you buy the "wrong" one.
You may want to consider a 99 Impreza RS coupe. I still don't like even the SOHC EJ25's, but they've basically bottomed out in value and are more collectible/desireable than WRXi.

Also, depending on the years BMW, I would stay away. They can be great, but are very prone to timing chain tensioner pad failures

[Huskymaniac]

Originally Posted by 1986nate

Just an FYI, there are very, very, very few FWD cars with LSD. I can only think of one off the top of my head factory and it's a quite rare car. That being said, I'll keep my eye out. Naturally, I'd ask if you'd consider an Audi, however, I've gotten enough tone to know better They can turn into headaches if you buy the "wrong" one.
You may want to consider a 99 Impreza RS coupe. I still don't like even the SOHC EJ25's, but they've basically bottomed out in value and are more collectible/desireable than WRXi.

Also, depending on the years BMW, I would stay away. They can be great, but are very prone to timing chain tensioner pad failures

I'll consider anything decent...except for Audis or VWs. As far as FWD cars with a LSD, the Infinity I30t and G20t are two examples. Nissan also put them in some of their regular cars like the Sentra SE-R (another car I am avoiding) and some Maximas. They were an option in some years. Acura offered them in some manual versions of the 3.2TL. The Honda Civic Si has it as well in recent years. But while those are options, I would still prefer AWD.

[benebob]

You're not including a price point but if you can find a Jag X Type stick. You'll be able to put him in a car which is as good if not better than everything else listed there and also put quite a bit in the bank for college. Only real issue with the X type stick shift is the transfer case since it comes as a sealed unit (you can change the fluid with a couple methods or kits) and once you do this you have a nearly bullet proof car. Sure the early 02-04 cars have some issues that were sorted by 05 but by this point most of those issues were likely dealt with by a previous owner.

It is simply the most fun I've had driving ours in the snow of any awd vehicle I've driven.

The 2.5 has plenty of power, the 3.0 is just icing on the cake.

Oh and every time you send in your insurance payment you can put some more college money away compared to the other cars listed.

Key with shopping for one is be smart about what you're looking at and if it isn't the right car don't try to convince yourself that it is.

Should be in the 70-75k range for around $6-7k for an 06-08. The less options the better as they come stripped about where a Lsi legacy is.

[1986nate]

Originally Posted by benebob

You're not including a price point but if you can find a Jag X Type stick. You'll be able to put him in a car which is as good if not better than everything else listed there and also put quite a bit in the bank for college. Only real issue with the X type stick shift is the transfer case since it comes as a sealed unit (you can change the fluid with a couple methods or kits) and once you do this you have a nearly bullet proof car. Sure the early 02-04 cars have some issues that were sorted by 05 but by this point most of those issues were likely dealt with by a previous owner.

It is simply the most fun I've had driving ours in the snow of any awd vehicle I've driven.

The 2.5 has plenty of power, the 3.0 is just icing on the cake.

Oh and every time you send in your insurance payment you can put some more college money away compared to the other cars listed.

Key with shopping for one is be smart about what you're looking at and if it isn't the right car don't try to convince yourself that it is.

Should be in the 70-75k range for around $6-7k for an 06-08. The less options the better as they come stripped about where a Lsi legacy is.

As soon as I saw you post, I knew you would suggest one. I had forgotten about these when coming up with suggestions. While I'm not the biggest fan since the intake manifold has to come off for things like spark plugs, and the transfer case BS you mentioned. However, like many cars, make a few proper "fixes" and then they're alright. Personally I'm not a fan of Jags as certain things they just overcomplicate for no reason, but it definitely is an option to think of.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by 1986nate

As soon as I saw you post, I knew you would suggest one. I had forgotten about these when coming up with suggestions. While I'm not the biggest fan since the intake manifold has to come off for things like spark plugs, and the transfer case BS you mentioned. However, like many cars, make a few proper "fixes" and then they're alright. Personally I'm not a fan of Jags as certain things they just overcomplicate for no reason, but it definitely is an option to think of.

I thought the spark plug thing was idiotic as well when I did them but the reality is, it takes no time to take it off and your plugs are done faster than on a Subaru boxer 4 and there are 2 extra cylinders to change. Also, I changed the original plugs at 95k and they looked like they would have lasted another 50k so it isn't like you need to do it more than a handful of times.

I find it funny that you drive a glorified VW and say that Jaguar over complicates things for no reason. I find them to be extremely simple in their designs, minimal complicated devices beyond all that says Bosch on the part but any vehicle with bells and whistles no reasonable person needs you can expect these kind of complications. Yes there is limited access but that's what happens when you take a large engine and sculpt a body around it.

It is worth considering and is also as quick as everything else listed as a possibility but benefits from very reasonable priced parts for most everything, a good used parts supply, good insurance rates plus a book value that is simply laughable.

[1986nate]

Originally Posted by benebob

I thought the spark plug thing was idiotic as well when I did them but the reality is, it takes no time to take it off and your plugs are done faster than on a Subaru boxer 4 and there are 2 extra cylinders to change. Also, I changed the original plugs at 95k and they looked like they would have lasted another 50k so it isn't like you need to do it more than a handful of times.

I find it funny that you drive a glorified VW and say that Jaguar over complicates things for no reason. I find them to be extremely simple in their designs, minimal complicated devices beyond all that says Bosch on the part but any vehicle with bells and whistles no reasonable person needs you can expect these kind of complications. Yes there is limited access but that's what happens when you take a large engine and sculpt a body around it.

It is worth considering and is also as quick as everything else listed as a possibility but benefits from very reasonable priced parts for most everything, a good used parts supply, good insurance rates plus a book value that is simply laughable.

Namely, overcomplicated as in the cooling system.... Maybe it's just the Longitudinal, but there is way too much going on. I say this as I'm having to fix one at work.
To me, they're just "meh" cars. The S type R we had went like stink but other than that, didn't seem special. They're comfortable to be in, nice options, the styling is there, but to me they're right with Mercedes as a "meh" factor. Not sure what it is, but just "boring".

All that being said, I still think a m/t xtype is a good car to think about among this discussion.
Depending on budget, you may want to think about an "R" volvo. starting in 04, either the XC70 or S60. Insurance doesn't get any cheaper than a Volvo. They go like hell and are reliable. Yes, they have their few quirks but keep in mind, I'm only a few hours or a message away if you need assistance. If I weren't such a cheapass, I would own a volvo. But they're lack of AWD paired with a m/t before the 04 R puts me out of that market.

[LetItSnow]

I'd have to vote for an Impreza (in snailed or snailesque trim), choosing from the lot you've listed. The parts are plentiful, and you won't feel bad about bathing it in salt come winter. Driving scarce machines like an SVX or a Stealth/3000GT - or for that matter, any car you really do or should care about - in our Central New York winter is just testimonial that you don't acknowledge it as a "keeper" and could easily throw it away and just remember the good times once the rust sets in.

[1986nate]

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

I'd have to vote for an Impreza (in snailed or snailesque trim), choosing from the lot you've listed. The parts are plentiful, and you won't feel bad about bathing it in salt come winter. Driving scarce machines like an SVX or a Stealth/3000GT - or for that matter, any car you really do or should care about - in our Central New York winter is just testimonial that you don't acknowledge it as a "keeper" and could easily throw it away and just remember the good times once the rust sets in.

One reason why Euro cars are the way to go.... They simply don't rust out.

Also, if you "take care" of a car through the winter, you can prevent them from rusting. Spraying them off, including underneath as often as possible, etc.

[wdb]

Early 00's Legacy GT. They came with rear LSD, 5 speeds are not plentiful but not hound's teeth either, lots of parts and expertise, and the car is safe as a house.

Or a similar year Impreza.

Or my SVX.

[LetItSnow]

Originally Posted by 1986nate

One reason why Euro cars are the way to go.... They simply don't rust out.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. I'll find some that have; if they're anywhere, they're here.

Originally Posted by 1986nate

Also, if you "take care" of a car through the winter, you can prevent them from rusting. Spraying them off, including underneath as often as possible, etc.

Not to derail, but every time I read this, roflcopters take flight. The last thing I want to do when I get home from work (or the store, or a restaurant, or...) after clearing the snow out the driveway is chance hypothermia while turning my driveway into a skating rink by rinsing (and coating with ice) the tops and bottoms of two cars. If you get a twice-a-month-salted, 20-inch snow season where you live, that might not be ridiculous. That's not part of my world; I'll let Tony speak for himself.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by 1986nate

Namely, overcomplicated as in the cooling system.... Maybe it's just the Longitudinal, but there is way too much going on. I say this as I'm having to fix one at work.
To me, they're just "meh" cars. The S type R we had went like stink but other than that, didn't seem special. They're comfortable to be in, nice options, the styling is there, but to me they're right with Mercedes as a "meh" factor. Not sure what it is, but just "boring".

All that being said, I still think a m/t xtype is a good car to think about among this discussion.
Depending on budget, you may want to think about an "R" volvo. starting in 04, either the XC70 or S60. Insurance doesn't get any cheaper than a Volvo. They go like hell and are reliable. Yes, they have their few quirks but keep in mind, I'm only a few hours or a message away if you need assistance. If I weren't such a cheapass, I would own a volvo. But they're lack of AWD paired with a m/t before the 04 R puts me out of that market.

Only thing I found to be a pita with the cooling system was that the bumper needs to come off to remove the radiator on the x but again, you should 't have to do that but maybe once in a cars lifespan. Sure it has a ton of seals and o rings but much of the cooling system was brought over from the modero so the car could be sold for not much more than a legacy in base form. The S is 48% of an ls so I can see why you think it is fairly meh, the x is less than 20% modero which is a very solid platform to start with, just ask Mazda! Both the X and the S don't hold a candle to a properly sorted x308- steel bodied XJ series or x100- XK8 but if sorted can be just as exciting to drive as a BMW or Mercedes and much more fun to drive then anything from Sweden (which to me just seem like plastic covered Ikea furniture to me anymore but at least they aren't offensive to drive). The biggest thing is they weren't set up for sportiness from the factory as their new car customers weren't demanding it from 75-2012. They can be transformed quite easily when you begin replacing the suspension bits. You would be amazed what replacing the front suspension bushings with poly on an XJR does for handling even without resetting the adaptive shocks. It will hold its own against the best Germany has today for a chassis which dates to the mid 80s.

[Huskymaniac]

Like syracuse, salt is unavoidable here. But I am now undercoating my cars at Krown and I do believe that will slow down the corrosion considerably.

Ironically, Volvos and Jags seems to score low in the same area which is with the interior parts. I am looking into them more closely on a year by year basis but I don't recall either being particularly reliable in my previous research. Complicating things is that I am getting conflicting ratings from various sources. One has the Legacy, for example, rated quite high while another says the reliability is average, at best. Only the civic si rates well across the board. The same two sources completely flip for the Impreza where the first says it is horrible and the second says it is average to quite good, depending on the year.

Another thing on the Volvo S60 R is that the fuel economy is pretty bad. Not sure about the Jag yet.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Huskymaniac

Like syracuse, salt is unavoidable here. But I am now undercoating my cars at Krown and I do believe that will slow down the corrosion considerably.

Ironically, Volvos and Jags seems to score low in the same area which is with the interior parts. I am looking into them more closely on a year by year basis but I don't recall either being particularly reliable in my previous research. Complicating things is that I am getting conflicting ratings from various sources. One has the Legacy, for example, rated quite high while another says the reliability is average, at best. Only the civic si rates well across the board. The same two sources completely flip for the Impreza where the first says it is horrible and the second says it is average to quite good, depending on the year.

Another thing on the Volvo S60 R is that the fuel economy is pretty bad. Not sure about the Jag yet.

Those who "score" vehicles tend to score based on their expectations. When you rate a Japanese econobox you expect it to have a econobox crappy plastic interior as that is what you've known them to have for 40 years. If the interior exceeds that you rate it higher. Conversely when you expect a high end interior and it is on the lower side of that you rate it poorly. I trust C.R and the others who rate things as much as I trust Congress. With 120k on the odo of our x type it is in far better shape then any Subaru I had with that mileage on it, esp. the condition of the interior. Still cruises great at 120mph too.

You'd see 23 city 30 highway out of an X type 2.5 with premium gas. Ours gets better then our 03 Legacy got for the same driving which is about 18 for my wife's very short commute. Before I bought an Impreza I would check with the insurance company on rates as it is one of the highest claim rate cars on the road and you'll likely pay insane rates for what it is. Conversely, all 3 of our Jags are each cheaper for insurance from the same company then the Legacy GT Wagon and Outback Sport they replaced. Yes, 400hp is cheaper than 160hp.

[Huskymaniac]

Where are you getting 400HP? I see about 230ish for the X-type.

Your assertions about ratings bias are based on opinions and speculation, not facts. One could say they disagree with the ratings based on their experience but personal experience is, by definition, one person. That's not exactly statistically significant. I have always heard british cars are not the best built. And my local mechanic has nothing but bad things to say about the Range Rovers he has had in his shop. That may not apply to Jags but it does line up with what I have heard over the years about brits in general. Sorry but I have to rely on whatever ratings I can find online versus the opinion of one guy...unless that guy is a long time mechanic and especially if he doesn't sell certain brands of cars as part of his business (sorry Nate). Now, if you want to tell me your car is refined, I could understand and would probably believe you based on what I have heard over the years. But reliability? I remain skeptical.

As far as Volvos are concerned, their ratings aren't as bad as I had recalled but it does depend on model year. Any idea which years offered models that had both AWD and manuals? The ratings seem to indicate the cars from the early 2000s were better.