jdm svx trans, will it work? - Page 9

TomsSVX · #**121** 08-05-2009, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

And again Tom,

What you have noted must also prove that the C solenoid is in fact closing properly, as Alex experiences controlled lock up, which must involve full pressure and a locked up clutch. The prolonged discussion regarding the solenoid issue, was pointless.

Arguments against my statements and centred on solenoid C, have been WRONG from the start and I have been forced into spending a huge amount of time and effort for nothing. What is more important, causing me to doubt my analysis, has prevented me from quickly advising Alex and he has been in limbo for a very considerable time.

Alex a member here, has been very much disadvantaged mainly as a result of Harvey's stupid posts confirming ignorance and doubtful intelligence. What is more, within this thread directed towards assisting people, Harvey seized an opportunity to directly abuse me. His glass house is truly transparent.

Thank goodness you have stayed with the plot and have not receded into the dark like many others.

With thanks, Trevor.

Trevor, get him the solenoid and put this to rest. The solenoid in the car is fine but it does not match what the TCU expects. The JDM N/O is closer to what the TCU expects and will help the AWD from binding. It is that plain and simple and I don't feel like arguing with about it anymore

Tom

Trevor · #**122** 08-05-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Trevor, get him the solenoid and put this to rest. The solenoid in the car is fine but it does not match what the TCU expects. The JDM N/O is closer to what the TCU expects and will help the AWD from binding. It is that plain and simple and I don't feel like arguing with about it anymore

Tom

Tom I Thought you had grasped the principals involved. What you have pointed out proves what I have stated, --- that in fact Alex tranny is working correctly, but the TCU is not programmed correctly.

If a solenoid from a VTD (i.e.N/O) is installed in a US centre clutch tranny, and the fuse is fitted, lengthened pulses will close the clutch. Alex has confirmed that his operates correctly and opens the clutch and he has only front wheel drive. Unwittingly as it now appears, you have also confirmed the same thing through your own observations. "It is that plain and simple"

The solenoid which must be used is the solenoid which matches the gearbox i.e. a normally open solenoid, as is now in the tranny. It is that simple. The TCU does "expect" a N/O solenoid but NOT one in a US mechanism with centre, clutch. It will and can not work with a N/O solenoid.

The same signal in respect of pulse length, is transmitted by both types of TCU. In both a lengthened pulse operates the solenoid. A shortening pulse disengages the solenoid towards its normal non-operated position when not energised.

The difference in solenoids provides the required reverse action for the associated valve. The US tranny has a solenoid valve which when energised opens to take pressure off the clutch i.e. a N/C. The VTD has a solenoid which when energised applies pressure and locks up the clutch. "It is that plain and simple"

Incidentally the fuse does not directly operate the solenoid. It grounds a circuit to provide a signal to the TCU.

I write accurate English. Please read all of my posts again, one step at a time, and appreciate exactly what is being portrayed. At this point I am in danger of appearing *patronising, but I must give direct advice.

It is now two AM and I have made quite a commitment towards the network. If there is a typo or two these must be excused. I now have knowledgeable friends monitoring this thread, so that I can now be doubly sure of my ground.

*A point you should note.

TomsSVX · #**123** 08-05-2009, 04:25 PM

It makes sense that the signals are reversed. until you provide some evidence that the signals are in fact the same (which they are not as it is obviously still binding) you are incorrect in assuming that the solenoid will not fix the issue. Stop trying to prove Harvey wrong and do a solid for someone who is in need of your help

Tom

Trevor · #**124** 08-05-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

It makes sense that the signals are reversed. until you provide some evidence that the signals are in fact the same (which they are not as it is obviously still binding) you are incorrect in assuming that the solenoid will not fix the issue. Stop trying to prove Harvey wrong and do a solid for someone who is in need of your help

Tom

Tom first ----

My post as below was removed and this has completely upset our discussion and could reiult in friction between us.

Again Tom,

Your last post also makes it clear that the solenoid now in the car is correct. The N/C solenoid is being signalled to open, as a result reduces the pressure, the clutch is disengaged and there is only front wheel drive.

I have previously not made this point, as I was not sure and confident regarding Alex' wording on the subject. (#40) However he has now confirmed this fact, by asking me in a PM, for confirmation regarding Harvey's advice, that he can drive the car as it stands.

N.B. Harvey has stated that it is OK to drive the car with the existing N/C solenoid. How ironic.

I have in several instances, including the above, proven that the signal is the same in respect of the application of pulse length. Both use a lengthened pulse to increase the effect/movement of the SOLENOID, but not operation of the VALVE which is opposite in the respect of a normally open and normally closed solenoid valve.

A normally open (N/O) solenoid valve, rests with the valve open. A normally closed (N/C), with the valve closed. A very good reason why I often use the full wording "solenoid valve" in preference to simply "solenoid".

You are doing yourself no favours, by continually endeavouring to protect Harvey from valid corrections.

Sincerely Trevor.

Trevor · #**125** 08-09-2009, 05:39 PM

Tom,

I admire you for Showing intestinal fortitude and sticking to your guns.

However, Harvey and you are calling on Alex to experiment, as a way of confirming an unproved idea. Whereas what I have stated is clearly proven by facts, which you do not appear to be able to grasp. This situation is causing someone who has trouble understanding English, to engage in unnecessary work and expense. Is this fair?

The N/C C solenoid now in the car, as I have proven is working as it should. However the VTD TCU still fitted, is delivering an incorrect signal in respect of clutch pressure, which is an obvious and anticipated situation. The requirements are different for the current centre clutch, as compared to a clutch in parallel with a LSD, which the VTD TCU is programmed to control.

I am now advised by an acknowledged expert that the correct TCU for the US transmission now fitted, must be used. Surely it is obvious that the VTD TCU can not be compatible. However, fitting a US TCU to a Euro car is not without problems. It has been done before, but there are some wiring changes required.

Therefore, as I have stated from the outset, the existing C solenoid should NOT be changed and the TCU should be changed for a us type TCU. This is a worthy experiment, if not a fix, and is worth the time and money involved.

These are probably last words in this thread, provided that Alex is not talked into unnecessary work and expense, in which case my second banning could be on the cards.

TomsSVX · #**126** 08-09-2009, 05:48 PM

Trevor, it is the only route he has to take aside from replacing the gearbox AGAIN and sucking a huge loss from all of this. Let it be and allow him to try it. If it does not work as I expect, he it was worth it to try. If you want to help by getting him a new solenoid assym, great!! Otherwise I have to send him a used one.

I am not taking sides and I am not going to battle you to the bitter end about this

Tom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

Tom,

I admire you for Showing intestinal fortitude and sticking to your guns.

However, Harvey and you are calling on Alex to experiment, as a way of confirming an unproved idea. Whereas what I have stated is clearly proven by facts, which you do not appear to be able to grasp. This situation is causing someone who has trouble understanding English, to engage in unnecessary work and expense. Is this fair?

The N/C C solenoid now in the car, as I have proven is working as it should. However the VTD TCU still fitted, is delivering an incorrect signal in respect of clutch pressure, which is an obvious and anticipated situation. The requirements are different for the current centre clutch, as compared to a clutch in parallel with a LSD, which the VTD TCU is programmed to control.

I am now advised by an acknowledged expert that the correct TCU for the US transmission now fitted, must be used. Surely it is obvious that the VTD TCU can not be compatible. However, fitting a US TCU to a Euro car is not without problems. It has been done before, but there are some wiring changes required.

Therefore, as I have stated from the outset, the existing C solenoid should NOT be changed and the TCU should be changed for a us type TCU. This is a worthy experiment, if not a fix, and is worth the time and money involved.

These are probably last words in this thread, provided that Alex is not talked into unnecessary work and expense, in which case my second banning could be on the cards.

Trevor · #**127** 08-09-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Trevor, it is the only route he has to take aside from replacing the gearbox AGAIN and sucking a huge loss from all of this. Let it be and allow him to try it. If it does not work as I expect, he it was worth it to try. If you want to help by getting him a new solenoid assym, great!! Otherwise I have to send him a used one.

I am not taking sides and I am not going to battle you to the bitter end about this

Tom

It is NOT the only route he has to take. He has the correct option of changing the TCU.

Why should he try that which is hopelessly incorrect, with the attendant work and cost, for no other reason than to protect both you and Harvey, from admitting that you have given the wrong advice.

herffstyle · #**128** 08-09-2009, 07:55 PM

What do you guys think about Alex's TCU working for my car?
I know his is not a JDM unit but it is still the same type of coupler in the tranny right?

thanks
Steve

Trevor · #**129** 08-09-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herffstyle

What do you guys think about Alex's TCU working for my car?
I know his is not a JDM unit but it is still the same type of coupler in the tranny right?

thanks
Steve

Provided that you have a VTD transmission, with the original normally open C solenoid valve, Alex original VTD TCU should work. However you should take notice of anyone who can point out a factual difference between the European and JDM systems, and in particular Phil.

oab_au · #**130** 08-09-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herffstyle

What do you guys think about Alex's TCU working for my car?
I know his is not a JDM unit but it is still the same type of coupler in the tranny right?

thanks
Steve

No Steve, your gearbox is a JDM and has a Hall effect sensor in the front diff.

Alex's TCU is a European VTD type, that used an Inductive sensor in the gearbox. It can't use the Hall effect signal. You need a JDM TCU.

Harvey.

longassname · #**131** 08-10-2009, 02:27 AM

Steve,

Are you the guy that emailed me some time ago asking me if a jdm transmisison would work in a us SVX (to whom I said the correct matching tcu and transmission must be used together)? It's kind of sad to see people talked into buying the wrong transmisisons when they could get theirs rebuilt and massively upgraded for $999 but I guess that is still where 1/3 of the SVX community is at.

If you have a JDM tansmission you need a jdm tcu. I don't remember the particulars but maybe 6 months ago I did some comparison of the TCUs used in JDM, Euro, and US TCUs and found they all had different components soldered on the pcb's in additon to different firmware. The resulting logic differences were quite complex to the point where I knew it was silly to waste any more time trying to use the wrong tcu with the wrong box. That's why I only offer the firmware for the jdm and euro tcu's instead of the whole tcu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by herffstyle

What do you guys think about Alex's TCU working for my car?
I know his is not a JDM unit but it is still the same type of coupler in the tranny right?

thanks
Steve

svxistentialist · #**132** 08-10-2009, 04:43 AM

Even though this thread has taken a long time to resolve and has technical issues clouded by personal issues I'm glad it is at last resolving to the point where we can now be sure members in each country know what upgrades match, and what changes are possible.

In a nutshell, SVX automatic transmissions come as follows:

USA market has ACT4 gearbox, C Solenoid operating on Normally Closed valve, Hall Effect speed sensor on front diff with wiring to suit. USA TCU. F/R torque split 90/10 varying electronically to 50/50

Japan market has VTD gearbox, C solenoid operating on Normally Open valve, Hall Effect speed sensor on front diff with wiring to suit. Japanese TCU. F/R torque split 36/64 varying electronically to 50/50.

UK market has VTD gearbox, C solenoid operating on Normally Open valve, Inductive speed sensor inside gearbox casing wired into the transmission control loom. UK TCU. F/R torque split 36/64 varying electronically to 50/50.

[Norway we now know got the same type as UK.]

Australia market has VTD gearbox, C solenoid acting on Normally Open valve, Inductive speed sensor inside gearbox. Australian TCU. F/R torque split 36/64 varying electronically to 50/50.

From the above we know that UK and Australia got the same gearbox type and have the same control wiring, ergo, for these two countries only the gearbox, the C solenoid valve and the TCUs will be interchangeable and presumed fully interoperable.

However even though the UK/Australia and Japanese cars both use the Full Monty VTD gearbox type, they are not readily interchangeable because of speed sensor and wiring differences. It's not impossible to do; with a complete gearbox changeover the wiring just has to be modified to suit, plus the correct TCU should be matched to the control inputs. [Or you could do like I did at one stage, fit the mechanical internals from the good gearbox into the casing of the blown unit, leaving the sensors and wiring correctly matched to the OEM transmission computer.]

In the case of the USA transmissions, to change to the VTD type you must also match the gearbox unit with the correct TCU. For minimal messing with wiring the optimum method is to use a JDM box plus a JDM TCU.

So any of you US members tempted to install a VTD gearbox, do not buy it unless you buy the matching TCU for the install.

Trevor · #**133** 08-10-2009, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Even though this thread has taken a long time to resolve and has technical issues clouded by personal issues I'm glad it is at last resolving to the point where we can now be sure members in each country know what upgrades match, and what changes are possible.[/I]

Joe,

At no stage have my statements been clouded by personal issues. I have gone to a great deal of trouble in proving that a US transmission will not work with a normally open C solenoid valve, this issue having considerable affect on a member. Two posting have stated that I am wrong. This has necessitated continual redress, sadly to no account.

I am pleased that you Joe, understand and accept that I am correct. You thereby show that you have the whit required, to understand the several angles of proof that I have detailed. Others are clearly not so endowed.

Your summary is well worded.

Thanks, Trevor.

Trevor · #**134** 08-10-2009, 06:16 AM

I have received two more e-mails from Alex. He is now has a clear understanding regarding retaining the existing N/C “C” solenoid, and changing to a US TCU.

He now wishes to purchase a US TCU in order to make this modification.

Also required is information regarding wiring, or sensor changes. This should be spelt out clearly using simple wording. As I understand it, there are members who are aware that he has done some work in this direction, and so will be in the best position to help him further.

Alex clearly understands that he is involved in a compromise set up, but he is stuck with it due to a lack of funds. This is a very sad situation, resulting from a persons well known to us, who has taken him for a ride.

Trevor · #**135** 08-30-2009, 03:02 AM

Alex has now received the required US TCU, as a result of a members kindness, for which he is very thankful.

Jason and Harvey, have now stated that they believe the solenoid should be changed regardless, and that the information I have provided is rubbish. They have taken this stance, as a way out of assisting Alex in any shape or form, stating that I am on my own, and they will look forward with glee, to the venture failing. This is a significant cop out, as Jason was the supplier of the transmission, and Harvey his advisor.

I will not be leaving Alex stranded, and will continue to do my best for him. However everything is in abeyance pending the acquisition of a US 3 wire speed sensor. A post here in the parts wanted section, has sadly so far brought no response.

Also required is resistance data on the US atmospheric sensor, so that this can be substituted with a manual control. If someone has one in a parts car, this would enable measurements to be taken.

In the event that the sensor is unobtainable, the project will have to proceed by making wiring modifications, trusting that the exiting sensor can be utilised. However this alternative is far from the best solution.