What is worse? Why?

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

Thank you, now only if this was the attitude we showed them.

Most of the attitude shown here is yours.

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

I fully plan to, I'll post that shortly.

Neatly side-stepping the question. You do this well. Do you have politics in your list of future ambitions, by any chance?

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

You just stated that 18-21 is the biologically best suited age to have children? My feelings match this fact, if that offends you please accept my apology, but that is how I feel.

I'm not at all offended by this opinion so you don't need to apologise for it. You have the right to start a family any time you feel is optimal, and I would support you in this, absolutely. What offends me is your assertion that adults over 40 should not have children.

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

In no other way am I 'ageist', I fully respect, accept and appreciate the experience and opinions of my elders, I simply don't always agree with them. The majority of my elders that I come in direct contact with rarely agree with each other so I don't feel this should be offensive, sounds to me like reverse ageism when they take offense just because it was stated by a younger individual.

This statement does not hold water. The remark you made is offensive and ageist, and it would be regardless of the age of the person making the remark. Also, using a term like reverse ageism shows you don't fully understand the concept of ageism. You appear to be building an argument against prejudice towards teenagers who become pregnant, which is ageism because it is prejudice against a group based on their age, yet in defense of that argument you display ageism yourself against older parents. Stick with the political career. I can't see you making the grade as a lawyer.

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

Now why is that necessary? I understand if you don't like what I have to say but do you be distasteful in return? I did not in any way intend to demean your choices, just how I feel personally. If that works for you, great! But as a person who has been overweight in the past in addition to smoking for a number of years, statistically I have already shortened my life. Based on that and a number of other reasons, I would like to preserve some of my 'post child rearing' years and spend more of my youth enjoying the time with my children.

I will support and not demean your choices also. Does being young and inexperienced and self opinionated give you the right to make distasteful statements, and not expect or earn a reply in like fashion?

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

As you can see, I'm not alone. In this case, my decision led me to a lower number and there is no harm in that.

Low numbers are good. Lower numbers are good. High numbers are good. Higher numbers are good. This is called Freedom of Choice. It is something that the practitioners of eugenics would deny the general population.

Joe

[BeneathNorthernSkys]

To only stress my point one last time...because this thread is really illogical at this point. How do you prevent yourself from having a child before you're ready? Which should be the point, not why is it that society looks down on young people with children.(when I say young people I'm thinking 18-35) Which to also point out, no one will know the difference if everything is running smoothly. It's once the child isn't receiving proper care, the care provider is falling short of giving the child it's needed attention and focus, that people say anything.(in most cases.)

This has no indication of age....it's simple math...you could be 16 or 60...if your not ready just don't engage in the risk. I seriously don't understand how this point isn't obvious.

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by BeneathNorthernSkys

To only stress my point one last time...because this thread is really illogical at this point. How do you prevent yourself from having a child before you're ready? Which should be the point, not why is it that society looks down on young people with children.(when I say young people I'm thinking 18-35)

I am not concerned at this point with prevention. That is one of the attitudes that is causing the craptastic behavior. People are so concerned about 'preventing teen pregnancy', they begin attacking teens, especially those who "end up in the situation".

Originally Posted by BeneathNorthernSkys

Which to also point out, no one will know the difference if everything is running smoothly. It's once the child isn't receiving proper care, the care provider is falling short of giving the child it's needed attention and focus, that people say anything.(in most cases.)

Far mistaken. In most cases the teen has barely into the first trimester before people start badgering them about how the f'd up their life. That's like saying you wouldn't notice the pregnant 16 year old waddling down the street. Yeah right, people notice them and scoff at them just as fast as a 580 lb man riding the electric carts at the grocery store. Scoffing at them isn't any better but how many people do you think have rolled their eyes and "omg do you see that" around them?

Originally Posted by BeneathNorthernSkys

This has no indication of age....it's simple math...you could be 16 or 60...if your not ready just don't engage in the risk. I seriously don't understand how this point isn't obvious.

Ok, so what about the ones that got condoms from school or planned parenthood and they we're the 1%? What about the ones that we're on birth control and antibiotics (proven distort birth control) at the same time and 'whoops', got pregnant? And especially, what about the ones that whole heartedly feel they are ready and still take abuse from older people who think they should have known better before they've even been given the chance to say it out loud?

[iizbeastie]

Ok, so where is this all coming from? What is the great "sympathy" towards teen-preggo's? here it is....

I started out as one of the statistically worst potential parents alive. No joke. In two short years I attended 7 high schools and thanks to crossing state lines before taking semester finals, I became a Junior with .25 credits and was told I still have 4 full years ahead of me. Did I do it? No, Do I regret it? No. I dropped out the day I was old enough and started working full time. At the time, I had entirely given up on the thought of finding 'the one', or going to college. At that point, every marriage in my family besides one had split up, and every man in my immediate family was a truck driver with at least 2 children they got to see once or twice a month. My mother (also a high school drop out and teen mom), was an area supervisor for a restaurant and holding her own financially, I thought that would be better than driving a rig my whole life. I ended up becoming a general manager.... yadda yadda, then a pizza delivery driver. Then one day, I met my wife. I knew it instantly, walked right into her kitchen. I'm not condoning the notion of love at first sight, or saying that it was the smartest move.... simply put, I walked into her kitchen and said "I want that, and I'm going to keep it". Well it didn't take long, and we were dating.... oops, by the way she just turned 17 (I had just turned 20). I personally do not at all like fast women as I mentioned once before..... we waited over a month and when we did do something we did actually have the what if conversation. After only a couple of times being together ... we were pregnant. There it is folks, the teen mom is my wife...... but wait, theres more.
She had friends, and well it's a high school where pretty much everyone knows everyone. So guess what, she wasn't the only one to get pregnant, soon several more followed. Her best friends ditched her because she didn't want to drink or party, and EVERYONE scoffed at her. Where is the attitude I have a problem with? Well lets see, her guidance counselor, friends, teachers, her pastor and even her mother were all on her case. I'm not talking just 'you need to figure out what your going to do', that would have been nice and I honestly wouldn't have much problem with it.... no, they were straight up jumping down their throats and tearing out their hearts, bringing up every dream the poor girls have ever had and throwing it in their faces like it was jotted down on scratch paper, as if they had violated a contract signed in blood with the devil himself.ALL of the people who are supposed to be supportive, took a crap on her as if she was a dirty ***** when I was the only guy she'd been with. A couple of the friends that left her, are now calling her for advice on what to do about their new baby just a year or three later. Wondering why no one calls them anymore and why everyone feels the need to criticize them. They didn't get it either. They fully realized they made put themselves in a hard place, every last one of them, and they did it before they announced the news. Where does my experience come from? Simple, I was the one person in several of their lives who actually listened instead. The one who acted like I cared about what they wanted and how they felt. And what to all women do when they are shown that respect? They open up and tell you everything. For at least 4 teen moms, I have been there the whole time, unlike anyone else besides their baby daddy, and oh, I helped them figure out what was going on in their heads too. There are a couple more cases where 'daddy' is the one I knew, not even the mom at all, but I know them now. To be honest, some days I feel like I have 9 brothers, 11 wives and about 22 children. And at no point during any of this have I been able to derive a good reason to scold a single one of them, myself included. I will **not** deny some exist, there is one in particular that I was never introduced to (my mothers co-workers daughter), who consistently pawns of her kid and goes out to party, and tries her heart out to get every piece of 'her life' for herself. As for the rest, they all agree that without a child you don't have a life. A bit hasty and inexperienced perhaps, but that is how they feel and you couldn't beat it out of them with a billy club.

So, was it hard? Of course it was.... lets see, when I got the news that my woman was preggo, I realized right away that a pizza joint wasn't going to cut it. It was a matter of days before I was at the tech paying (in advance) for my GED. I even argued with them about the schedule. They tried to convince me that I could take 1 of 5 tests per week and all I could say was "why, there are 5 days in a week, I want one a day all next week".... it took making a bit of a scene, but I ended up taking all 5 test in two days.... and in less than two full weeks I received my GED in the mail and was interviewing for schools. Everything worked out perfectly..... wife's 18th birthday.... three and a half weeks later, got married, another three weeks, our son was born. Oh, and still to this day I would like to b!t** slap every person who says we got married because she was pregnant. We already planned on it, perhaps premature in our decision, BEFORE she got pregnant. Yes, that is correct, we planned on marriage after knowing each other a month, it happens, deal with it. Being pregnant merely helped set the date because getting your paternal rights in this state out of wedlock is a crock. The mom can't even sign off on it for you. If on the other hand, you are married, then you can't get out of it even if it is NOT your child, figure that one out? Thanks to my sudden motivation in life, a few short months later I started college. I kept my job at the pizza shack because tips are awesome and dammit I'm good at it. A month after I started school, the chair of my program hired me as a Teaching Assistant. SO, and a full time half hours school schedule (4 days a week) I worked at the school in the morning, was a student in the early afternoon, and delivered hot steamy pizza two nights (5-close, friday and saturday) every week, and still had the time left over to see my son a good portion every day. Doing this brought me from a 99.99% statistical chance of being a deadbeat dad, to making more money than anyone in either side of either of my families and granted me the right to tell the guidance counselors, pastors and my mother-in-law that now that I have broken my a$$ and done what I needed to do, they can kiss it and they were wrong. I'm rather proud of what I have accomplished and have every right to be. I was a punk-drop out-delivery boy with no chance of greatness, who got his act together faster than Emeril can say BAM. Now, we've had our second child and I still have the money left over, after all of the diapers, formula, toys and clothes (don't forget maternity clothes) to be working of my SVX (just finished fixing up a 69 Chevelle too), and be going on vacation in little over a month.

So, where is my experience? Watching it happen more times that the majority of the people going on and on about how something has to be done about it. And oh, yeah DOING IT with worse conditions than many. And my questions remain, how do they deserve this? I'm not talking about the responsibility of being a parent, that they deserve fully. But why, as a society, do people feel it is necessary to treat these young women in such a way that they cry themselves to sleep most nights? Don't say it doesn't happen, or that it was a rare case, because it isn't. Even in a place that is supposed to be civil, people have some need to act superior, as if compared to something that needs to be flushed down the toilet.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

So, where is my experience? Watching it happen more times that the majority of the people going on and on about how something has to be done about it. And oh, yeah DOING IT with worse conditions than many. And my questions remain, how do they deserve this? I'm not talking about the responsibility of being a parent, that they deserve fully. But why, as a society, do people feel it is necessary to treat these young women in such a way that they cry themselves to sleep most nights? Don't say it doesn't happen, or that it was a rare case, because it isn't. Even in a place that is supposed to be civil, people have some need to act superior, as if compared to something that needs to be flushed down the toilet.

You are to be congratulated, young fellow, you have done very well. In getting on with your life and supporting your partner you are displaying a maturity that is not all that typical in under twenty year olds.

In all honesty I can't defend the attitudes you say were shown to these young teenage mothers, when they needed support rather than approbation. You would need to take into account though, that statistics will show that teenage mothers are often not financially equipped nor mature enough to properly rear a child, and that teenage marriages have a high rate of attrition. Viewed in that light the councilors and teachers and so on that you mention may feel they would not like to show an encouraging attitude[to teenage pregnancy] to the classes at large. Teenagers have been known to mistake support for their problems as endorsement of their behaviour.

There is a subtle difference.

As regards the matter of your experience, I would make the point that it is limited because of your age. You have loads of experience of teenage pregnancy and a successful marriage to be proud of. You have no experience of raising children through teenage years, just yet. If you thought I was mocking you, that was not my intention and I apologise. I was trying to challenge you on the lack of breadth to your experience, so that you might reserve judgement on things such as older parenthood till you walked a mile in those shoes.

And in that vein I will offer a scenario to see if it may offer you a different perspective on older parents. Say the unthinkable happens and you lose the woman you love to cancer or something in your mid thirties. A few years later you fall in love again with a wonderful woman, you get married and she wants children of her own. Do you think your prejudice against older 40+ parenting will still hold out in this scenario? I would like to think you are mature enough to see that it would not. Children at any age are a blessing. If teenagers can reset their priorities for babies, so can older adults.

And thank you for "coming clean" with your story. It is a pleasure to see young people Doing It Right and beating all the odds. Fair play to you both.

Joe

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

In most cases the teen has barely into the first trimester before people start badgering them about how the f'd up their life. That's like saying you wouldn't notice the pregnant 16 year old waddling down the street. Yeah right, people notice them and scoff at them just as fast as a 580 lb man riding the electric carts at the grocery store. Scoffing at them isn't any better but how many people do you think have rolled their eyes and "omg do you see that" around them?

I plead guilty on both counts.

I'm more discretionary these days, but you are absolutely right. I have discussed this with many people, albeit tersely, and most come to the same conclusion of "Omg, look at that, such a shame."

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Most of the attitude shown here is yours.

The only attitude I have is a direct result of the attitude I am referring to, that being what society shows to young parents or soon to be parents. I didn't accuse anyone here specifically of an attitude.

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Neatly side-stepping the question. You do this well. Do you have politics in your list of future ambitions, by any chance?

I didn't sidestep anything. I said I would post it soon. I simply had more important things to do at the moment, sorry I didn't post soon enough for you. and, um, no.

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

What offends me is your assertion that adults over 40 should not have children.

I stated quite clearly this is my opinion. I also stated that if it works for you I'm fine with it. I just wouldn't do it myself.

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

This statement does not hold water. The remark you made is offensive and ageist, and it would be regardless of the age of the person making the remark. Also, using a term like reverse ageism shows you don't fully understand the concept of ageism.

My statement was meant just as reverse racism. Those who feel the need to act against something that may or may not have been committed against them simply due to the fact that they are a different race. The movie PCU comes to mind..... "I'm black, I should be at the front of the line", "women have been oppressed for years, get over it"... and so on. These statements coming from whiners who have not even been a victim of the oppression they are going on about. If I was a 45 year old with a child and felt that way would I be ageist? Even though I would be talking about myself?

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

You appear to be building an argument against prejudice towards teenagers who become pregnant, which is ageism because it is prejudice against a group based on their age, yet in defense of that argument you display ageism yourself against older parents.

I'm not building an argument, I'm asking for their rational. As far as ageism, if believing that younger is better than older is ageist then yes, I am, but considering that biology is on my side, I'm not. It does sound as though you have accepted the fact that "prejudice towards teenagers who become pregnant, is ageism". This is one of my main points.

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

I will support and not demean your choices also. Does being young and inexperienced and self opinionated give you the right to make distasteful statements, and not expect or earn a reply in like fashion?

I made a statement that you found distasteful and would expect that in return. You were mocking me, which is not the same.

[NikFu S.]

I think for any real progress to be made here we should break down "society" into the factions that hold the beliefs in question.

Christianity for example (easy target), preaches abstinence until marriage, and generally frowns upon younger mothers.