Roll of the dice election

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by gstape

Thats fine and I have no problem with that point of view in public schools. After all as you say there are a lot of people that believe evolution makes the most sense. But teach it as a theory, not as truth or fact.

It is taught as theory. Highly plausible theory.

But why not teach creation / intelligent design as another possibility?

Parental responsibility. This increases the school's burden greatly, not to mention there are far too many variations in faiths. In my high school we did read Genesis, but it was "taught" purely as literature, in a mythology elective.
There are too many people who do not want other people force feeding children a belief system.

After all that makes sense to the 2 billion people in this world that call themselves christians (including 70% of Americans). And among those 2 billion people there are a bunch of brilliant ones.

Source for your statistic? The Census Bureau apparently does not record this one.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/popdata.html

I would want my kids to be tought about the world, the people who live in this world and what they believe (again you don't teach as truth and probably not in a lot of depth). Isn't that at least in part what education is about?

This kind of information has little value outside of the home/congregation. It has little or no use in the career field. Ignoring that, the majority of people acquire the basic principles of their regions major faith whether they like it or not. Teaching it at length is either redundant or pointless depending on parties involved and I state once again there are schools devoted to indoctrination. If this is important to a parent, they will enroll their kid in a Christian (or whatever) school.

Words6789.

[triumph1902]

Obama as president would be a worse disaster then Bush was.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by gstape

Thats fine and I have no problem with that point of view in public schools. After all as you say there are a lot of people that believe evolution makes the most sense. But teach it as a theory, not as truth or fact.

i don't ever remember hearing about the "Law of Evolution" - its always been the "Theory of Evolution".

But why not teach creation / intelligent design as another possibility? After all that makes sense to the 2 billion people in this world that call themselves christians (including 70% of Americans). And among those 2 billion people there are a bunch of brilliant ones.

why not teach reincarnation, alien spawn, and every other religions ideas?

I would want my kids to be tought about the world, the people who live in this world and what they believe (again you don't teach as truth and probably not in a lot of depth). Isn't that at least in part what education is about?

that's great - they can learn that in whatever church their parents raise them in.

[Royal Tiger]

When I entered the Air Force Reserve in 1994 we had 88 people per SF Flight. When Clinton left office in 2000 we had 46. The C-141 squadron was 12 planes per flight; in 2000 there were 7. I saw FIRST hand the dismemberment of the military under slick willy. Save me the Obama won't hurt the military garbage.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by gstape

But why not teach creation / intelligent design as another possibility?

That's easy.

Separation of Church and State.

If they want to learn about ID, go to a private school sponsored by a Church, or learn about it in your Church, Bible study, etc...

But in public schools? See above.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

When I entered the Air Force Reserve in 1994 we had 88 people per SF Flight. When Clinton left office in 2000 we had 46. The C-141 squadron was 12 planes per flight; in 2000 there were 7. I saw FIRST hand the dismemberment of the military under slick willy. Save me the Obama won't hurt the military garbage.

I was in the USAF Active Duty from 1994-2002...

And what this man speaks is the truth.

[gstape]

It is taught as theory. Highly plausible theory.

Higly plausible? ... and you say:

I can't tell you where everything came from because that is something nobody knows. My belief is the first matter always existed.

the origin of matter and energy is the essential first step in evolution theory, and we have absolutely no understanding of it. Yet we call evolution theory "Highly plausible".

(Just to be clear I am not talking about changes of spiecies over time... that is more than plausible, that is documented. For example people are taller than they were on average 100 years ago, I am talking about evolution explaining the origin of life vs a creator)

Source for your statistic? The Census Bureau apparently does not

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm


I am not as I said in favor of teaching creation as truth, (or any other religous doctrine for that matter) I am in favor of teaching a broad world view... and again I am not talking necessarily about science class. Just don't exclude anything and everything because it may have some religious connotations. Why leave creation and ID out in favor of only evolution when you are teaching about the origin of life and the world? Maybe we should just leave it all out, because none of it has been proven scientifically.

This kind of information has little value outside of the home/congregation. It has little or no use in the career field.

And evolution does? Of course I think it does if taught accuratly, knowledge has value.

Isn't it Obama that says he is uniquely qualified to be commander in cheif because of his world experience?... his life in other countries, and his studies in school? ( I would argue Mccain is more qualified though based on experience)

Relating to, understanding, and working with people that have a different world view is extremly important in many career fields. In
fact discussions like this are valuble too, we all get to understand eachother a little better.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by gstape

Higly plausible? ... and you say:


the origin of matter and energy is the essential first step in evolution theory, and we have absolutely no understanding of it. Yet we call evolution theory "Highly plausible".

(Just to be clear I am not talking about changes of spiecies over time... that is more than plausible, that is documented. For example people are taller than they were on average 100 years ago, I am talking about evolution explaining the origin of life vs a creator)

Then you are talking about abiogenesis vs. ID, not ID vs. the Theory of Evolution.

That's the primary point here. The Theory of Evolution has ZIP to do with how we were created, but everything to do with how we have changed since then.

[greggbzz]

Ya'll just need to tell me ID's testable hypothesis and be done with it.

Until then, it's not science. It should not be taught in science class. Sorry.

How many of you debating really know how the scientific method works?

[gstape]

I don't make policy, but at least I get to vote in a "swing state" Actually I hate the way that works.

Then you are talking about abiogenesis vs. ID, not ID vs. the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is NOT a theory of abiogenesis, evolution DOES NOT disrupt ID creation uh... myths. It does call a few facts into question, sure, like the age of the world, but evolution and even scientific abiogensis theories can coexist with an intelligent design... belief.

Chris and Nikfu, Sorry I missed that distinction. My bad. I was using the word evolution as synonymous with abiogenesis.

And Nikfu I like your words teach as theory and belief. I don't like the word myth though thats where I get defensive... when so many people (including many brilliant people) believe in creation or ID then the word myth doesn't do it justice. Belief is accurate.

Ya'll just need to tell me ID's testable hypothesis and be done with it.

Until then, it's not science. It should not be taught in science class.

Yup, As I said earlier, don't teach ID or creation as science its not. But if part of the school's cirriculum addresses the origin of life how can you leave it out? Teach it as a belief. Teach abiogenesis as scientific theory. And leave it at that.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by gstape

I am talking about evolution explaining the origin of life vs a creator)

There are quite a few hypotheses on the scientific origin of life, but I do not recall there being a standard accepted model. I also do not recall any origin of life being taught in any class I ever had.
Evolution doesn't have anything to do with abiogenesis.
I feel ID and non-ID origins are in the same boat, here. Neither can be verified, and both can be considered in extracurricular lessons. There is nothing stopping anyone from choosing which path to take, unless Palin gets in there and screws things up by making ID a requirement of public schooling.

This to me shows a lack of foresight on her part, maybe a general lack of understanding the scientific model, separation of church and state, various other related things.
What is the point of secularism when our leaders keep shoving God in our faces?

--
To recap the important point here: I do not believe any version of abiogenesis is taught in public (k-12) schools.

--

myth
–noun
1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

[gstape]

Thats all good, thanks for the good discussion.

FYI I just saw an interview with Palin on Fox with Sean Hannity and Sean asked her the question of teaching evolution. Her answer was something like this... My dad was a science teacher I have great respect for science to be taught in our science classes and evolution to be taught in our science classes... she did not go any further than that in the interview.

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by RSVX

I was in the USAF Active Duty from 1994-2002...

And what this man speaks is the truth.

Thanks Chris. I was Reserves from 1994-2005 with 18 months active following 9/11. We had it bad, but the 141 guys (McGuire was a MAC then AMC base) had it worse. 1/2 the men and equipment, and twice the missions.

[shotgunslade]

Speciation through natural selection is an observed process, just like the revolution of the earth around the sun. It is not a theory. The proliferation of beak shapes on finches in the Galapagos islands and the acquisition of antibiotic immunity in bacteria are well documented examples. There has been so much work done to observe the evolution of different biological functions and bodily parts in various species. For example, it has been documented that some body parts have a single beginning and can be traced back to a single species, while other bodily mechanisms seem to have arisen multiple times. All of this work is observation not theory. It is in the fossil record, or in the catalogue of species alive today.

The theory of intelligent design is that the complexity of organisms cannot be fully explained by natural selection. The challenge for this theory is to create an experiment and prove that a single biological function cannot be arived at by a process of natural selection. That has not occurred. Nor have its proponents offered any more than a few half-a$$ed exmaples that have been discredited.

Evolutionary science when well described should say that there is currently no evidence that any mechanism other than natural selection has been proven to drive speciation.

Intelligent design says that there is an alternate force at work, but it has demonstrated neither the exception (evidence that some function cannot be arrived at by natural selection) or the example (evidence of creation of some biological mechanism by a designer).

Intelligent design is a theory, one that its proponents have not subjected to rigorous experimentation. Evolutionary science is observation. To date, all documented processes of speciation have occurred through natural selection.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

Thanks Chris. I was Reserves from 1994-2005 with 18 months active following 9/11. We had it bad, but the 141 guys (McGuire was a MAC then AMC base) had it worse. 1/2 the men and equipment, and twice the missions.

Um, thats where I was stationed... 605th AGS...

141s, I am guessing you were 305th?