New Shift Kit Developed

[SomethingElse]

word for word you did not say it like that. but in generalization I felt it fit

As Tom mentioned too...(not word for word) The kit modifies shifting in a way it was not designed for. I cant see any positive mechanical result with prolonged use. Internal components will wear out quicker then they would under normal use, Looking at the dyno charts makes that a fact. People just need to be aware of that

looking at the dyno charts also makes me want one because it does provide a significant increase in power at the wheels. And If my tranny breaks, so what! Ive got spares, Not everyone does thou....

Originally Posted by oab_au

Well Eric.I didn't really say that , did I?
It went like this;
"This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD"

I can understand your concern. I would probably would be too, if I hadn't driven a car with it on. But having driven it for 13 months, in all conditions, except abusing it, I find it is one of those things you forget is there, that is till you want to slip out of your lane into the next and there is a gap coming up, you give it a bit of throttle, and instead of it sitting there waiting for it to go, It just jumps into the empty lane.

The other place it reminds you it is there, is when you are sitting behind a car waiting to pass. The roads clears to overtake and hit the throttle, Instead of hoping a car doesn't come the other way, it just grabs 3rd and you are around and back on your side of the road.

I know you are Technical, so I think you will change your mind when you get to try a car with it on.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SomethingElse

word for word you did not say it like that. but in generalization I felt it fit

As Tom mentioned too...(not word for word) The kit modifies shifting in a way it was not designed for. I cant see any positive mechanical result with prolonged use. Internal components will wear out quicker then they would under normal use, Looking at the dyno charts makes that a fact. People just need to be aware of that

looking at the dyno charts also makes me want one because it does provide a significant increase in power at the wheels. And If my tranny breaks, so what! Ive got spares, Not everyone does thou....

OK I will write an explanation of the Dyno chart, as I can see people can't interpret it technically.

As for the box not being designed to do this, Subaru did not worry about putting this box behind the RS turbo, or the WRX, without turning the torque down.
For the SVX they wanted that smooth, luxury, high priced change.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Trevor if have offended you with my post, I apologise.
I will remove the offending words from my post.

Harvey.

Harvey, an alteration of your post and or an apology is not required and it is best that all remain as is.

I have been corresponding with officialdom by PM and now am aware of the circumstances involved, having been advised:-

“Don't play dumb with me, it doesnt suit you.
Everyone that has half a brain knows EXACTLY why you started that thread.
Harvey's post rang of the truth and was not disrespectful in tone. He merely called a spade a spade.
Myself, other admins/mods, and even other members know why you started that thread. Not to share the topic of something new for the community, but to give yourself an opportunity to take a few shots at Harvey.”

If those with half a brain are so inclined this is of no concern. However the fact that the deletion my complete post was based on prejudice, rather than fact/content, most certainly is. Others have been very critical within the thread. I gather it was expected that I would join in very early, with vigour and glee. The anticipants were disappointed.

At the time of posting, your gismo was being offered solely via a competing site and given that you have again been active here, this did make me disgruntled and possibly wrongly affect my desire to promote the news. Whatever, at any time on either site, a simple message, posted by you, e.g. “A little patience is required as testing is not quite complete and I must make sure nothing is overlooked”, would surely have provided the leeway you have claimed I denied you. In any event let it all be water under the bridge.

It will be interesting to see if this post is allowed viewing, as it must be in danger of being considered as highly political.

Several have discounted your claim of an increase in horsepower, but they are not in fact correct.

The best way for them to understand what is involved is to compare an old fashioned, fluid fly wheel (FFW), with a modern torque converter (TC). The FFW comprised a simple driving impeller and an output ‘turbine’ coupled hydraulically. While similar, a TC incorporates what could be termed an hydraulic fluid feed back system, whereby second use is made of the reciprocating fluid in order to improve efficiency.

By example, if both machines were set up with the output shafts braked to the same degree, but allowed to rotate, and equal power applied at the input impellers, performances would not equate. Measurement would disclose a higher torque applied via the TC and the output shaft would rotate faster than that of the FFW. This reaction would exactly indicate an increase in horse power as a result of torque gain within the TC. A Google will provide those unsure with details of exactly how this is achieved.

The degree of torque is dependent on the difference in rotation between input and output as a result of applied power and driven load and in your application the time involved in these becoming equal after a gear change. Both factors are important within the equation, but here time has a duplicate effect.

How long is the spike? Is it showing torque/power applied for sufficient time to significantly affect performance? I believe your profit will likely depend on placebo and the tactile sensation of a more sporting type of car. If all are happy what the hell.

The possibility of damage is open to conjecture. Increasing the line pressure as part of the exercise could well overcome friction surface wear. Shock increases should not be too bad on moves up the ratios, but coming down possibly involves factors not yet disclosed. Complete details are awaited with interest.

P.S. I have just read YT's analysis elsewhere, of how the spike records transmission engagement at a point when the engine speed exceeds output requirements. I have not mentioned this additional factor as it is surely self evident.

Trevor.

[immortal_suby]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Harvey, an alteration of your post and or an apology is not required and it is best that all remain as is.

I have been corresponding with officialdom by PM and now am aware of the circumstances involved, having been advised:-

“Don't play dumb with me, it doesnt suit you.
Everyone that has half a brain knows EXACTLY why you started that thread.
Harvey's post rang of the truth and was not disrespectful in tone. He merely called a spade a spade.
Myself, other admins/mods, and even other members know why you started that thread. Not to share the topic of something new for the community, but to give yourself an opportunity to take a few shots at Harvey.”

If those with half a brain are so inclined this is of no concern. However the fact that the deletion my complete post was based on prejudice, rather than fact/content, most certainly is. Others have been very critical within the thread. I gather it was expected that I would join in very early, with vigour and glee. The anticipants were disappointed.

At the time of posting, your gismo was being offered solely via a competing site and given that you have again been active here, this did make me disgruntled and possibly wrongly affect my desire to promote the news. Whatever, at any time on either site, a simple message, posted by you, e.g. “A little patience is required as testing is not quite complete and I must make sure nothing is overlooked”, would surely have provided the leeway you have claimed I denied you. In any event let it all be water under the bridge.

It will be interesting to see if this post is allowed viewing, as it must be in danger of being considered as highly political.

Several have discounted your claim of an increase in horsepower, but they are not in fact correct.

The best way for them to understand what is involved is to compare an old fashioned, fluid fly wheel (FFW), with a modern torque converter (TC). The FFW comprised a simple driving impeller and an output ‘turbine’ coupled hydraulically. While similar, a TC incorporates what could be termed an hydraulic fluid feed back system, whereby second use is made of the reciprocating fluid in order to improve efficiency.

By example, if both machines were set up with the output shafts braked to the same degree, but allowed to rotate, and equal power applied at the input impellers, performances would not equate. Measurement would disclose a higher torque applied via the TC and the output shaft would rotate faster than that of the FFW. This reaction would exactly indicate an increase in horse power as a result of torque gain within the TC. A Google will provide those unsure with details of exactly how this is achieved.

The degree of torque is dependent on the difference in rotation between input and output as a result of applied power and driven load and in your application the time involved in these becoming equal after a gear change. Both factors are important within the equation, but here time has a duplicate effect.

How long is the spike? Is it showing torque/power applied for sufficient time to significantly affect performance? I believe your profit will likely depend on placebo and the tactile sensation of a more sporting type of car. If all are happy what the hell.

The possibility of damage is open to conjecture. Increasing the line pressure as part of the exercise could well overcome friction surface wear. Shock increases should not be too bad on moves up the ratios, but coming down possibly involves factors not yet disclosed. Complete details are awaited with interest.

Trevor.

I'm interested to see some timeslips from the guys who have a good history at the dragstrip. It seems the improvement during the shift would have to show up at the strip.
Harvey stated on the SWF that the QC along with the power mode mod will provide engine braking in all gears. That would be excellent for the twisty backroads.

[Myetball]

I almost forgot what this thread was about....allow me to summarized the last several pages.

[poweredx2]

After reading all of this great info,do anyone run dual air fuel ratio gauges if so you can really see during wot shifts that the right half of the engine is being shut down.Even when I ran nos the same always happen.New question if the QC adressing this issue it should stand to benefit your engine by appling full power with both engine halves running during shifts.Your will only see this if you are running 2 a/f ratio meters,the right half always go blink for a milisecond.I hope this will help.

[poweredx2]

Maybe the increase in hp is just the other half of the engine .

[oab_au]

Deciphering Dyno charts for some is like me, looking at Phil’s source code. It looks very good, but tells me nothing. To Phil it has a whole lot of clues in plain sight.
Reading a torque chart tells me every thing about the performance of the engine and transmission. Everybody looks at the Numbers, how much power does it make?
I look at the shape of the curve, is it flat or peaky, are there any dips or peaks. What happened in the breathing to cause that dip or was it the exhaust?

The charts that Tina posted, shows the torque delivered to the wheels through the 1st-2nd gear change that we can read, to see the effects of the change on wheel power. To understand this we have to know that the ratio change does to the flow. When we do the ratio change from first gears ratio of 2.785:1 to second gears 1.515:1 we will be changing the speed of the engine by 2800 rpm. At full throttle the auto box will change at 6500 rpm, so the engine speed has to slow to 3700 rpm.

In the before chart we see the torque line rising fast at the start and slowly decrease as the speed rises. At about 34.5 MPH/6500RPM the fuel injection pulse to every second injector is turned off. At the first green line the band is applied and the box is in second gear. The rise in the torque line between the two green lines is the Torque converter slowing the engine down the necessary 2800 rpms. This is helped by the 50% torque cut that is on, but the torque still increases as the 2800 rpm difference brings the converters torque multiplication factor up to 1.9 times. As the engine slows and the speed difference reduces so does the torque factor. The peak of this is reached at about 36 MPH and the engine has come down to speed at about 37 MPH, the injection is brought back on gradually to conform to the “no change felt policy”, and the engine is restored to full power at about 38 MPH. All the time between the two red lines is the lag that we feel, about 4.5 MPHs worth.

In the after chart a better view shows the three changes into 2,3,4. In this chart we see by the flat Air/Fuel curve that there is no cut made. The change takes place at the first of the green lines at about 33-34 MPH/6500 RPM. When the band is applied and the box is in second gear, the torque converter starts to slow the engine, but because the engine is still at full power the multiplication factor of about 1.9, results in a much higher torque output, peaking on the red line, at about 36 MPH. By about 38-39 MPH the engine has slowed to the new ratio speed of 3700. This is fortunate as this puts us right in the middle of the Inlets Inertia torque curve, where it is putting out 90 odd % of the total torque, this then multiplying by the factor of 1.9 produces an increase torque flow of about 227 ft lbs.

The other things to be noticed is that when the band is applied at the first green line, there is no shock recorded in the torque, as it would have shown up as a sharp increase. over a very short period. The following torque peak is due to the converter multiplying the torque over a longer period that is felt as a surg, and as the hydraulic engagement pressure is increased in this time, the band can easily hold this increase.

Comparing the 3 changes, it can be seen that the amplitude of the torque peaks reduces as the gearing is increased, the 3-4 change has a lower torque peak that the 1-2 change. You should note that Tina’s car is fitted with 4.44:1 diffs so the lower ratio produces torque peaks in her car, that will be higher, and over a shorter period, than a car with the STD 3.45:1 diff ratio.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by poweredx2

Maybe the increase in hp is just the other half of the engine .

The power increase is due to the higher average torque over the time. The Torque converter can't increase power only torque. The increase in torque is offset by a reduction in rotational speed, so the power remaines the same.

Your car on the gas would have put a fair bit of torque through the change into second gear.
I have been trying to find the post where Michael dynoed his Nitrous kit back in 2004. You may remember, I know Matt would, but it hit around 440 ft lbs on the change. so the box can take it.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

The power increase is due to the higher average torque over the time. The Torque converter can't increase power only torque. The increase in torque is offset by a reduction in rotational speed, so the power remaines the same.

Harvey.

You claim that there is an increase in the performance of the car. If so there must be an increase in horsepower at the wheels and as I have explained in my last post, this does occur. But you are here saying the power remains the same.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Trevor

You claim that there is an increase in the performance of the car. If so there must be an increase in horsepower at the wheels and as I have explained in my last post, this does occur. But you are here saying the power remains the same.

No, what I said is that "the increase in power is due to the Average torque over Time" that the change takes place.

It is in the torque converters conversion, that the torque is increased but the power remains the same. As the torque is increased, the different speed between the two converters elements is increased. As with any mechanical advantage. But what you say in your post is basically right.

Harvey.

[b3lha]

So how does the QC operate?

I'm guessing that it detects the gearchange by reading the voltage on the TCU torque control line (which is no longer connected to the ECU) and then overrides the signal to Duty Sol A that controls the line pressure.

Is that right, or is there more to it than that?

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by oab_au

First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire.

The “Quick Change” is the result of a long held desire to improve the way the SVX Auto preforms the gear changes that many others, and I have. The gear changes are controlled by the TCU to make them very smooth and unobtrusive, by reducing the engines torque output by 50%, lowering the line pressure to soften the engagement, then raising the line pressure again and turning the engines torque back on to 100%
Unfortunately takes some time to achieve, it also has the actual band/clutch engagement taking place with a reduced line pressure that allows some slipping to take place.

To achieve the results that are needed, the Torque Control has to be addressed to allow the engine to continue to preform. If it is removed the engagement of the brake band and clutches would then take place under full power, with a reduced line pressure to the determent of the linings. The lowing of the line pressure has to be addressed also, to allow them to take the normal load

These changes to the operation for the Torque Control and the line pressure, have to be preformed only at the time they are needed, they can’t be a permanent changes, as these functions are needed at other times in the operation of the gearbox. The “Quick Change” does this by looking at the throttle pressure and engaging the control to suit the load.

The Line pressure lowering is preformed by the TCU sending a signal to the ‘A’ solenoid. The “Quick Change” intercepts this signal to keep the Line pressure high, so that the Brake band and the Clutches engage under full pressure, to prevent any slippage. The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal. You cannot use the Small Cars Shift Kit with this unit.

The following Warning is given in the fitting instructions:

Warning: This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD.


Harvey.

Originally Posted by b3lha

So how does the QC operate?

I'm guessing that it detects the gearchange by reading the voltage on the TCU torque control line (which is no longer connected to the ECU) and then overrides the signal to Duty Sol A that controls the line pressure.

Is that right, or is there more to it than that?

Read up

[b3lha]

Originally Posted by RSVX

Read up

Yes. I read that. But it is not a complete explanation. I was hoping that Harvey would provide some further clarification.

Originally Posted by oab_au

These changes to the operation for the Torque Control and the line pressure, have to be preformed only at the time they are needed, they can’t be a permanent changes, as these functions are needed at other times in the operation of the gearbox. The “Quick Change” does this by looking at the throttle pressure and engaging the control to suit the load.

How does the QC knows when the change to the torque control and line pressure operation is needed. How does it know when a gear change is taking place, or about to take place? Where is the threshold of throttle position that causes the QC to activate?

The Line pressure lowering is preformed by the TCU sending a signal to the ‘A’ solenoid. The “Quick Change” intercepts this signal to keep the Line pressure high, so that the Brake band and the Clutches engage under full pressure, to prevent any slippage. The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal.

What is the relationship between throttle pressure and the duty cycle applied by the QC? Does the QC actually apply an increase the pulse width, or just force the solenoid open with DC?
I am not asking WHAT it does, I am asking HOW it does it.

[RSVX]

I lose