Fantastic speech!!!!

[sicksubie]

We can all pick and choose what we repeat from what we hear from our military. My best friend is an army ranger and my next door neighbor is a force recon marine. Bothe have done time in Iraq and come back safely, and both have requested to go back ASAP. To say support is waning is an understatement but please do not make it sound like our troops are dead set against this.

About Iran: To ignore Iran is to wallow in sheer ignorance of the potential evil that could come upon us. The Iranians are ruled by an insane dictator who would love nothing less than for you and me to die horrific deaths and go to "hell" Do you wait and say "oops" when a massive attack happens that makes 9/11 look like nothing? I sincerely wish you were right about them not being a threat, but in the words of Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing".

[sicksubie]

[QUOTE=NikFu S.;499967]
I agree. So even though you may believe you think for yourself, you align yourself with the motives of the same people that seek to control you.

QUOTE]

So, because we dont see eye to eye with you, we do not think for ourselves? That is a useless argument to get into because people only formulate opinions based on what they know and hear. Therefore no one thinks for themselves 100% and for one individual to tell another that "you are not thinking for yourself because your beliefs align with the same people who seek to control you" is based on what the speaker's beliefs who are also influenced by a different set of circumstances and knowledge. Basically NO ONE can say to another person " How dare you believe what you believe.... Think for yourself."

[UPnorth362]

Ok... Lets slow down here for a minute. I agree that the current administration may have been able to handle our current state of affairs differently. I do believe that more people have lost there lives than needed. I do in no way intend to point fingers, or insult your views. However, for our country so sit back and watch, as a country develops with open threats, means of destructive nuclear power, would be as sad as the day they use them in our country or any other.
9-11 was a tragic day for this country. But can you imagine if a nuclear device was deployed. It doesent take something the size of a jumbo jet to kill 200 or 300 thousand people and render a large area of land uninhabitable. That threat to me is worth doing something about.
Not only that, but what about oil? That region supplies us, and many other nations with a large portion of the worlds oil supply. I dont think it would be good to leave the area up to groups of people, who would love to put our nation, as well as many others into a depression.
We are not there for one sole reason, and you are right. The enemy is here at home as well. So why would we give that threat the means to do us bad. The situation is complex. Far more complex than I could passably comprehend. The enemy is smarter and there tactics have evolved. Shouldn't we do something about it?

[porschekiller]

this war is going on because trade is more valuable to the administartion than naive lives with moral waivers. this war could've been won a long time ago with embargos on enemy nations and their trade partners, but that would cost more than lives and apparently the administartion isnt trying to help them fast and pray. we're in another weimar republic. don't forget hitler was elected in a democratic election and hypnotized a nation. we can also see in any almanac that gore received more votes and that politicians elect the president. the almanac will also show you scandanavian countries are the most livable and african countries are the most unlivable, but is that racist. our country is ranked 37th in the world for healthcare, but is #1 for narcotics consumption, arrrest rate, lawyers, and transexuals.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by sicksubie

We can all pick and choose what we repeat from what we hear from our military. My best friend is an army ranger and my next door neighbor is a force recon marine. Bothe have done time in Iraq and come back safely, and both have requested to go back ASAP. To say support is waning is an understatement but please do not make it sound like our troops are dead set against this.

Support is waning? Every year the polls show support waning. It's at less than 50%, that's a minority. People that support the war, military included, are a MINORITY.

About Iran: To ignore Iran is to wallow in sheer ignorance of the potential evil that could come upon us. The Iranians are ruled by an insane dictator who would love nothing less than for you and me to die horrific deaths and go to "hell" Do you wait and say "oops" when a massive attack happens that makes 9/11 look like nothing? I sincerely wish you were right about them not being a threat, but in the words of Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing".

"Wallow in sheer ignoarance" give me a break. Is this a factual debate or a thespians meeting? "Potential evil" Oooh you're scaring the **** out of me. Ooh it's "potential", even though there is NO PROOF of anything. The higher ups you subscribe to have BASED their arguments and actions on ignorance, and you have the balls to back them and say the opposite so matter-of-factly.

Oh yes, the Ayatollah of Iran is a horrible person. Observe his message of love and peace. What an insane dictator!

-"Khamenei has said that human rights are a fundamental principle underlying Islamic teachings, including the rights to live, to be free, to benefit from justice and to welfare. He has criticised Western human rights advocates for hypocrisy by economically oppressing people in Third World countries and supporting despots and dictators.

He usually states that the American administration has committed many crimes and is therefore not authorized to judge human rights in Iran."-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei

Our friend Edmund Burke is probably spinning in his grave!
Here is something else he said, with accompanying text:

-"Concerning the imperial controversy at the time Burke argued that the British government had acted in a both unwise and inconsistent manner. Again, Burke claimed that Britain's way of dealing with the colony question was strictly legal and he urged that also "claims of circumstance, utility, and moral principle should be considered, as well as precedent"(...432). In other words, if the British, persistently clinging to their narrow legalism, were not to clash with the ideas and opinions of the colonists on these matters, they would have to offer more respect and regard for the colonies' cause. Burke called for "legislative reason" in two of his parliamentary speeches on the subject; On American Taxation (1774) and On Moving His Resolutions for Conciliation With America (1775). However, British imperial policy in the controversy would continue to ignore these questions. "-

So as you can see, even though he is not against Imperialism being that he was an 18th century Brit, he understands opposing wannabe nations not as "evil", but merely people with a cause that needs to be respected. I'm sure he would slap you in the face for the quote you used in his name regarding your imperialistic genocide, this witless reproach of people in the East.

Originally Posted by sicksubie

So, because we dont see eye to eye with you, we do not think for ourselves?

The argument you based this post on is non-contextual, therefore irrelevant.
This has nothing to do with seeing things my way. It has everything to do with seeing things the way of people who have led this country into fascism.

Originally Posted by UPnorth362

Ok... Lets slow down here for a minute. I agree that the current administration may have been able to handle our current state of affairs differently. I do believe that more people have lost there lives than needed. I do in no way intend to point fingers, or insult your views. However, for our country so sit back and watch, as a country develops with open threats, means of destructive nuclear power, would be as sad as the day they use them in our country or any other.
9-11 was a tragic day for this country. But can you imagine if a nuclear device was deployed. It doesent take something the size of a jumbo jet to kill 200 or 300 thousand people and render a large area of land uninhabitable. That threat to me is worth doing something about.
Not only that, but what about oil? That region supplies us, and many other nations with a large portion of the worlds oil supply. I dont think it would be good to leave the area up to groups of people, who would love to put our nation, as well as many others into a depression.
We are not there for one sole reason, and you are right. The enemy is here at home as well. So why would we give that threat the means to do us bad. The situation is complex. Far more complex than I could passably comprehend. The enemy is smarter and there tactics have evolved. Shouldn't we do something about it?

That's a lot of words to be receiving such a simple answer as this that will only lead to more questions, but,

the enemy is not the enemy. The enemy is US. We are the "evil" ones. Every excuse you make out as a cause for retaliation, not only is blind retaliation at best, but an end of which the means was retaliation onset through misdeed.

You are saying these people are out to get us, but it is US who is out to get THEM.
They simply do not have the means to assault us. If the people are oppressed, and an airline pilot is not allowed to carry a simple weapon to defend himself, then yes, they have a means. If the media is bought and told to spread misinformation to incite fear and hatred, then yes, they have a means. If you allow your life or freedoms to be sacrificed to a cause for which there is no justification, no proof, no foreseeable end result, then yes, they have a means.
How little faith do you have in people that you cannot trust those of other cultures to not harm us, and you cannot trust your own neighbors to protect themselves? How do you reconcile with a system of government that fails consistently and denies said failure?

[UPnorth362]

Originally Posted by porschekiller

this war is going on because trade is more valuable to the administartion than naive lives with moral waivers. this war could've been won a long time ago with embargos on enemy nations and their trade partners, but that would cost more than lives and apparently the administartion isnt trying to help them fast and pray. we're in another weimar republic. don't forget hitler was elected in a democratic election and hypnotized a nation. we can also see in any almanac that gore received more votes and that politicians elect the president. the almanac will also show you scandanavian countries are the most livable and african countries are the most unlivable, but is that racist. our country is ranked 37th in the world for healthcare, but is #1 for narcotics consumption, arrrest rate, lawyers, and transexuals.

I just wonder if embargoes are going to work for countrys that also would like to see this country fail. Not to mention pour money into them to help them develop weapons quicker. But you are correct in the fact, that this country is in need of some moral help. Big business will do much to poison us for money. But we do accept with open arms, dont we? The problem is not democratic, or republican. Its our own. After all, we have elected our leaders, either dem, or rep. We allow ourselves to be programmed by an agenda. more people need to step back, and look at the man behind the media curtain.
As for our health care system. I was recently in a motorcycle accident. Our system works just fine. Top notch doctors, and medicine. dident have to wait weeks or months for care, or medication. Why is it that people come from all over the world for our medicine?

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by UPnorth362

Why is it that people whom can afford it come from all over the world for our medicine?

Fixed.
The problem with out healthcare system is people that make less than 30k a year basically have to fend for themselves, or buy insurance in favor over a savings account. A nation of privatized health care is a factor in keeping poor people just that. I'm not saying privatized health care is bad, I'm just saying it would be better as a supplement to what could be at least a decent standardized national healthcare system.

[UPnorth362]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

Fixed.
The problem with out healthcare system is people that make less than 30k a year basically have to fend for themselves, or buy insurance in favor over a savings account. A nation of privatized health care is a factor in keeping poor people just that. I'm not saying privatized health care is bad, I'm just saying it would be better as a supplement to what could be at least a decent standardized national healthcare system.

We both agree that our government is flawed. So why would we turn the one thing over to them that actually works in this country? I provide insurance for my wife, daughter, and myself. Plus I have a tax free supplemental medical savings account. I wouldn't have it any other way. I have what I have because I work hard, and strive to do better for myself and my family. When did Americans get so lazy, that we need the government to spoon fees us?

[sicksubie]

Originally Posted by porschekiller

this war is going on because trade is more valuable to the administartion than naive lives with moral waivers. this war could've been won a long time ago with embargos on enemy nations and their trade partners, but that would cost more than lives and apparently the administartion isnt trying to help them fast and pray. we're in another weimar republic. don't forget hitler was elected in a democratic election and hypnotized a nation. we can also see in any almanac that gore received more votes and that politicians elect the president. the almanac will also show you scandanavian countries are the most livable and african countries are the most unlivable, but is that racist. our country is ranked 37th in the world for healthcare, but is #1 for narcotics consumption, arrrest rate, lawyers, and transexuals.

Uhmmmmm....... Wow. I dont know what to say..... You go from saying we should have put an embargo on Iraq (stupid because we didn't trade with them anyway) to Gore receiving more votes and yet losing the election due to the electoral process. All the way to scandinavian countries being more livable? What on earth are you talking about? Transexuals??? Arrest rates??? HITLER???????????????????? Come one, you are not making a case for Massholes intelligence levels here.

[sicksubie]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

Fixed.
The problem with out healthcare system is people that make less than 30k a year basically have to fend for themselves, or buy insurance in favor over a savings account. A nation of privatized health care is a factor in keeping poor people just that. I'm not saying privatized health care is bad, I'm just saying it would be better as a supplement to what could be at least a decent standardized national healthcare system.

The problem is that nationalization ALWAYS equals s.....l...........o.......w......

I agree that there is a problem too but turning to the government to fix it goes against everything this country was founded on.

[TomsSVX]

is someone from alaska... AKA colony in Canada really requesting people to leave his country?? Just a lil humor to lighten the mood in here

Tom

[UPnorth362]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

is someone from alaska... AKA colony in Canada really requesting people to leave his country?? Just a lil humor to lighten the mood in here

Tom

Thanks tom, was starting to get a little sick of playing swards any ways.

Hows that idle issue going?

[sicksubie]

I don't see why Burke would slap me but w/e.... Basically I just feel that to ignore people who are hell bent ( thankfully literally ) on our destruction and are gaining means to try is foolish.





P.S. Rubble doesn't make trouble

I will catch it for that but w/e

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

is someone from alaska... AKA colony in Canada really requesting people to leave his country?? Just a lil humor to lighten the mood in here

Tom

the guy who lives in Alaska and barely pays taxes wants the rest of us to provide healthcare for him.


go get a job, you lazy hippie! you could sell tinfoil hats on the internets.

[UPnorth362]

[QUOTE=sicksubie;500021]I don't see why Burke would slap me but w/e.... Basically I just feel that to ignore people who are hell bent ( thankfully literally ) on our destruction and are gaining means to try is foolish.





P.S. Rubble doesn't make trouble

I will catch it for that but w/e[/QUOT

I second that. In my opinion maby the war was not executed properly, and maby we dont need to be there anymore. However, there are visible, and open situations. I for one will not sit back and watch it grow. We may not stop the problem being there, but I can guarantee that we are learning more about growing situations, and our neighboring countrys than we would if we did nothing.