The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:
SVXBot

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > MOD Mania > Proven Engine Enhancements

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-25-2006, 03:58 PM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
Cam Lobes

Now that a few have installed intake cams with good success, it seems appropriate to find and compare hard data on these lobes, as well as other lobes that could be used. Driving impressions of different cammed engines should also be included in the thread.

The problem in comparing svx-stock lobes with other lobes is that no standard was used to compare. I asked Delta Cams to find the lift that the svx 236* intake duration and 244* exhaust duration spec was based on. This was measured to be .006" lift. The lift that 'advertised' duration is measured varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Advertised duration is generally referred to as 'seat to seat' duration.

Once this spec was determined, I asked for the duration on the Nissan lobe, measured the same way. Now, we are much closer to apples for apples comparison.

The Nissan lobe is Delta tool #F327. This is the lobe profile installed by TomsSVX and Chiketkd.

Measured cam specs:
SVX intake lift: .280" Duration: 236*@ .006" lift/ 184*@ .050"
SVX exhaust: .311" Duration: 244*@ .006" lift/ 194*@ .050"
Nissan lobe: .314" Duration: 256*@ .006" lift/ 194*@ .050"
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117

Last edited by NeedForSpeed; 01-25-2006 at 04:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-25-2006, 04:10 PM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
more lobes

We have comparative measurements on two more Nissan KA24 dohc cams. The Cam Doctor would not provide a consistant measurement at .006".

So, let's compare the duration at .010" lift.

Measured cam specs:
SVX intake lift: .280" Duration: 219*@ .010" lift/ 184*@ .050"
SVX exh. lift: . 311" Duration: 226*@ .010" lift/ 194*@ .050"
Nissan lift: .342"/.350" Duration: 282*@ .010" lift/ 206*@ .050"

There are other lobes that look promising.
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117

Last edited by NeedForSpeed; 01-25-2006 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-25-2006, 04:13 PM
SilverSpear's Avatar
SilverSpear SilverSpear is offline
Still 1.7K to go...
Subaru Silver Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lebanon, Middle East
Posts: 7,564
Send a message via AIM to SilverSpear Send a message via MSN to SilverSpear Send a message via Skype™ to SilverSpear
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed
There are other lobes that look promising.
__________________
Danny

1994 Silver SVX in hybernation, awaiting for the monsterous awakening (Lebanon)
1967 Mercedes-Benz 250SL Euro Specs, Hard/Softtop, White/Red. Under Complete Restoration
2013 Mercedes-Benz SL350 Euro Specs, White/Red. Mint... Another step into SL Collection.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-25-2006, 05:17 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,014
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed
Now that a few have installed intake cams with good success, it seems appropriate to find and compare hard data on these lobes, as well as other lobes that could be used. Driving impressions of different cammed engines should also be included in the thread.

The problem in comparing svx-stock lobes with other lobes is that no standard was used to compare. I asked Delta Cams to find the lift that the svx 236* intake duration and 244* exhaust duration spec was based on. This was measured to be .006" lift. The lift that 'advertised' duration is measured varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Advertised duration is generally referred to as 'seat to seat' duration.

Once this spec was determined, I asked for the duration on the Nissan lobe, measured the same way. Now, we are much closer to apples for apples comparison.

The Nissan lobe is Delta tool #F327. This is the lobe profile installed by TomsSVX and Chiketkd.

Measured cam specs:
SVX intake lift: .280" Duration: 236*@ .006" lift/ 184*@ .050"
SVX exhaust: .311" Duration: 244*@ .006" lift/ 194*@ .050"
Nissan lobe: .314" Duration: 256*@ .006" lift/ 194*@ .050"
Good work Ron, Bin hoping somebody would get the guts on the cam profile.

Looking at the figures, the cam we have been using is a slow opening cam. You can see that it takes an extra 10* to get the valve open. This type of cam is not the best for creating a strong sonic wave. The SVX exhaust profile would work better. Same lift faster opening.

Harvey.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-25-2006, 05:24 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Hi Ron,

I just got off the phone with Scott @ Delta Cam, and the second set of KA24DE cams that I sent to him have very promising profiles for the SVX intake (and exhaust). Here are the stats:

S14 KA24DE motor (late model 240SX)
intake profile: 0.350" lift, 206 deg @ 0.050" (a bit too much duration)
exhaust profile: 0.350" lift, 200 deg @ 0.050" (almost too much duration, but probably ok).

He says that he's going to do some search for other profiles that may work, but I'm leaning towards using that S14 exhaust profile. In comparison to Chike's and Tom's intake cam profile, this profile will have 4 deg more duration, and another 0.040" (1 mm) of lift.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-25-2006, 06:43 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,409
Registered SVX Classic SVX
are you suggesting using 9mm of lift I think we will go coilbound with that. Unless you are just suggesting 1mm over stock. Either way, let me know because come this weekend my set of cams will be shipped out. Whether I use a new profile or stick to the old one is still up in the air but I need to replace my front seals badly and have been waiting for this to do them. So if there is any good info by friday please post what u know

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-25-2006, 09:22 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Bill (SVXRide) has a few items to check with his bench cylinder head:

1) Amount of valve lift required to cause valve collision during overlap.

2) Clearance between intake cam lobe and rim of the lifter bore

3) Amount of intake valve lift before going coil bound.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-26-2006, 11:53 AM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
I have been in touch with Bill on this, and I will also confirm these numbers.

As for valve collision during overlap, cams with .480" lift and 266* at .050" have been used. That's huge lift and the valves are open a long time. We shouldn't have any problem in this area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
Bill (SVXRide) has a few items to check with his bench cylinder head:

1) Amount of valve lift required to cause valve collision during overlap.

2) Clearance between intake cam lobe and rim of the lifter bore

3) Amount of intake valve lift before going coil bound.
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-26-2006, 12:21 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Nice. Sounds like 9 mm of lift should be no prob. I'd still like to get some confirmation from Bill just to get a 2nd confirmation. :-)
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Chiketkd's Avatar
Chiketkd Chiketkd is offline
Row faster...I hear banjos!!!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 10,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
Nice. Sounds like 9 mm of lift should be no prob. I'd still like to get some confirmation from Bill just to get a 2nd confirmation. :-)
Even if the valve springs don't bind, isn't there a risk of valve float in the upper rpms with that much lift over stock?

-Chike
__________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold)
2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold)
1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-26-2006, 12:51 PM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
Yes, I posted rough specs on those new Nissan lobes above. It seems that many cam profiles were used on KA24s.

You are comparing duration of the two Nissan lobes at .050" and making a decision only on that. As Harvey pointed out, once more data was available, lobes can have virtually the same total lift and the same duration at .050", but have very different opening rates, which on non-boosted eg33s can make a big difference in our sonic wave. The Nissan lobes have very lazy opening rates, perhaps to prevent the 31mm top shim for kicking off the follower. The Nissan doesn't have our intake system, so the lazy opening is not critical to the Nissan engine. Perhaps the Nissan lobes are a better profile for our supercharged engines and very acceptable for our higher rpm 6mt cars.

What Scott didn't tell you is equally important in our cam choices. He only provided the duration @ .050" which looks to be 6* more on the .350" lift cam than on the .314" [Tom/Chike] cam. This is not enough information to make a comparison. With only this information, it looks like a good choice, but remember, we know now that Nissan lobes are slow opening. More lift further multiplies the lazy opening.

Look at my posts again, and compare these two sets of Nissan lobes.

Nissan [Chike/Tom] Lift: .314 Duration 256*@.006/ 194*@.050
Nissan [2nd set] Lift: .350 Duration 282*@.010/ 206*@.050

The second lobe is not the 200* lobe you mentioned, I don't have specs on it. But I have specs on four different KA lobes with lifts of .342"/.350"/.367".

Nissan lobe durations at .050" lift: 204*/206*/208*/216*
Nissan lobe durations at .010" lift: 272*/276*/282*/284*/292*

For comparison, the SVX intake duration @.010 is 219*/ exhaust 226*
Extrapolating, a Nissan lobe with 200*@.050 could be 262* at .010".

Nissan lobes of .350" lift are not as close to the .314" lobes as you would expect with only 4-6* difference at .050".


Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
Hi Ron,

I just got off the phone with Scott @ Delta Cam, and the second set of KA24DE cams that I sent to him have very promising profiles for the SVX intake (and exhaust). Here are the stats:

S14 KA24DE motor (late model 240SX)
intake profile: 0.350" lift, 206 deg @ 0.050" (a bit too much duration)
exhaust profile: 0.350" lift, 200 deg @ 0.050" (almost too much duration, but probably ok).

He says that he's going to do some search for other profiles that may work, but I'm leaning towards using that S14 exhaust profile. In comparison to Chike's and Tom's intake cam profile, this profile will have 4 deg more duration, and another 0.040" (1 mm) of lift.
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117

Last edited by NeedForSpeed; 01-07-2007 at 04:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-26-2006, 03:23 PM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
The Nissan lobes are slow to open because those lobes are designed for solid buckets, to take up the lash.
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117

Last edited by NeedForSpeed; 08-23-2006 at 06:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-26-2006, 05:00 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
I did a little more searching for possible cam profiles. The Nissan VG30DE motor ('90-'95 300ZX) may have a worthwhile profile. Its a DOHC engine with direct acting cams and hydraulic lifters. Factory spec on the cams are 0.335" lift and 248 deg total duration for both the intake and exhaust. Scott @ Delta Cam says that he has a few pairs in his storage room, and he's going to get them out tonight and measure the cam profiles.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-26-2006, 05:45 PM
NeedForSpeed NeedForSpeed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SoCal / Texas
Posts: 1,738
Registered SVX
Great,

Get duration at .006"/.010/.020/.050/.100/.200/.250/.300

What is the lifter diameter of the ZX?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
I did a little more searching for possible cam profiles. The Nissan VG30DE motor ('90-'95 300ZX) may have a worthwhile profile. Its a DOHC engine with direct acting cams and hydraulic lifters. Factory spec on the cams are 0.335" lift and 248 deg total duration for both the intake and exhaust. Scott @ Delta Cam says that he has a few pairs in his storage room, and he's going to get them out tonight and measure the cam profiles.
__________________
Special Thanks to Our Friends and Sponsors:
*
http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm http://www.PhenixWheels.com http://www.dba.com.au/
http://www.ClassicSoftTrim.com http://ToyoTires.com/tire/pattern/versado-lx Gillman Subaru of Houston
"QuickChange" http://www.TransGo.com/ http://www.PlanetSVX.com Bontrager Works,

'92 Subaru SVX LS-L Claret ORIGINAL OWNER
'92 LS-L Pearl~ '92 LS Pearl~ '92 LS-L Teal~ '92 LS-L Silver~ '95 LSi Polo~
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Pearl~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54143
'92 JDM Alcyone SVX Version-L 4WS Ebony~ http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54117
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-26-2006, 06:24 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Scott says his profiling machine still isn't functioning properly at low lift. He's going to try to fix it before taking measurements.

The lifter diameter is 31 mm.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122