Subura Engineers are not GODS.... there IS room for improvement...

[Chicane]

Okay, I posted a topic about modding the H6 and its potential power.... and I got some responses like "The H6 is an excellent engine, and it'd be soooo hard and difficult to improve don't even waste your time."

Um. Hey, guess what? I bet you there are guys who know more about engines than you do, and I bet you they might disagree. ANNNNDDDDDD, I seem to remember a certain thread about a heavily modified H6 in a drag car that seemed to be going QUITE fast and making a LOT of power.

Now, my question for all the nay sayers is this: Do you think they 'magically' gave the H6 more horsepower? I'm here to answer that question, no they did not. 4 stroke engines have been around for a long time, and there's a huge list of things that can be done to make additional power on almost ANY engine. Hell, look at the original VW beetle... they had like.. what.. 45 horses? And today, there are modified ones with how many hundred horsepower? It's true that in a N/A engine there is a theoretical limit for power, and I'm going to use that buddy of mine in attempt to explain it to you.

... it seems he's offline, however, I'll send him this link, and see if he decides to register and post to enlighten us with his mad automotive related mathmatical skills.

Alright Fyrce.... displacement is stock, at 3.3 liters.... redline is 6500 RPMs. What's the potential here? (do the whole 911/F1 example for us)...

If you read this before he replies, just wait, and I'll bump up the topic once I have the answers.

- Rob

[Aredubjay]

I don't think Suby engineers are Gods. I met one of the fellows who worked on the EG33 design in Lafayette. Nice guy.

The point is, ANYTHING, given enogh money and, may I add "SPACE" can be modified. Yes, Frank Aragona, JR. did some great work with the EG33 in his drag car, but he also had sponsors, and (as you'll well notice) plenty of room to add stacks and other stuff to increase his HP.

There are many who know engines better than me, but, for what it was made for, the EG33 is perfect, in my opinion.

Mod all you want. It can be done. But, make sure you do it right.

[sfsvx]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
I don't think Suby engineers are Gods. I met one of the fellows who worked on the EG33 design in Lafayette. Nice guy.

The point is, ANYTHING, given enogh money and, may I add "SPACE" can be modified. Yes, Frank Aragona, JR. did some great work with the EG33 in his drag car, but he also had sponsors, and (as you'll well notice) plenty of room to add stacks and other stuff to increase his HP.

There are many who know engines better than me, but, for what it was made for, the EG33 is perfect, in my opinion.

Mod all you want. It can be done. But, make sure you do it right.

That picture made me want to cut a big hole in my SVX hood and stick a blower on the engine.

Follow that up with a jacked-up rear end, Traction Masters, and side pipes, and I think I've got myself a REAL car!

[Tim]

No need for harshness , we're all open to ideas.... that are cost effective

[Trevor]

The point is that the simple things usually done to a cheap stock engine have allready been taken care of e.g. matching manifolds, smoothing the inlet tract,
bounce free valve train, balancing, porting. Any so called improvement will not be economical and will simply change the characteristics of the engine towards a use for which it was not designed.

May be not gods but they KNEW what they were doing and did it well.

[sfsvx]

Originally posted by Trevor
The point is that the simple things usually done to a cheap stock engine have allready been taken care of e.g. matching manifolds, smoothing the inlet tract,
bounce free valve train, balancing, porting. Any so called improvement will not be economical and will simply change the characteristics of the engine towards a use for which it was not designed.

May be not gods but they KNEW what they were doing and did it well.

I agree, Trevor - most automotive engineers seem to work pretty hard at optimizing their product for the wide range of real-world situations. Changing things that the manufacturer spent millions on to develop may improve performance in one area, but frequently hurt performance in other areas. For example, those supertuner Ferraris that blast down the track once, then throw a piston or fry the electronics or . . .

[Subafreak]

Yes. The EG 33 makes good power for it's displacment, even to this day. Alot of the improvments that could be made to it would be in the higher reving more horse, less torqe area ( not good in a 3700lb. car). But say you had Cobb tuning do to the EG 33 what they did to that 2.5L. Semiclosed deck, stroker kit, forged rods and 9.0/1 pistons, oil sqirters, and O-ringed heads. Then slap on a turbo or supercharger running 20psi and an intercooler and, look at that someone improved an EG 33. It would be expensive but it would be done right and it would be the fastest SVX on the road.

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Trevor
May be not gods but they KNEW what they were doing and did it well.

Disagree about the 'well' part. Well in comparison to what? A sunfire? A neon? In those cars, there's a ton of room for improvement, I understand that there is less room for improvement in our cars, but there IS room for improvement, without sacrificing driveability.

Just wait til Fyrce gets here, he'll explain it real well.

- Rob

[Seraph]

If you give me money, I'll get the right stuff to send the SVX to the moon and back. It can be done. IT's the matter of when you say enough is enough and good enough. You can put a supercharger, change the compression ratios and even put Nitrous in the car. The question is can you fit all of them under the current hood without any modifications.

I've been telling people, give me money, I'll slap an ICBM on top of your car and you can have the fastest SVX on earth. You may not live to enjoy it though.

Oh and I can not really get ICBMs but you get the picture.

L

[LarryIII]

Chicane,

I am a degreed mechanical engineer and have been working as a consulting engineer for 30years. Engineers, me included, do not think of ourselves as gods. But we do accept donations.
So get your checkbook ready and PM me.

[Chicane]

Alright, fine, let's bring up the WRX. No doubt Subaru was doing everything in its power to make it into a little pocket rocket, correct? YET... amazingly enough... there are tuner companies out there making mods for the WRX that produce even more power. How is this possible? The FACTORY engineers need to make engines with a limited budget. Maybe they can't put headers on the car due to the cost. Maybe they didn't turbo it because too many people would do something wrong and blow it up. Who knows? But the point is is that this engine has room for improvement, PERIOD. And no, it's not going to cost 100,000 dollars to do so. It's probably easier than you think.

And once Fyrce gets here, he'll prove it to you...

And if you STILL aren't convinced, just wait til you see Phil's SVX in about 5 years, or mine in about 8.

- Rob

[Seraph]

<<Alright, fine, let's bring up the WRX. No doubt Subaru was doing everything in its power to make it into a little pocket rocket, correct? >>

Subaru left the WRX stock. It's the STi and people like ProDrive that make the WRX fly. Not Subaru. STi has a subaru name but it's not really Subaru is it? You know what I mean... Benz and AMG comes to my mind.


<<And if you STILL aren't convinced, just wait til you see Phil's SVX in about 5 years, or mine in about 8.>>

How much do you intend to sink in in that time? You want something quick, get a quick car. I intend to get another SVX and a z28. SVX is not a quick car. It was never made for it.

Like I said in the 600hp H6 thread, what good is the 600hp H6 when your tranny or the suspension can only handle a portion of that. So you have a 600hp H6 and you spend 2000 modding it out (yeah right) how much more do you have to sink in for bigger brakes (last figure I head was 2000), how about the new suspension? How about... Too many how abouts...

Lwin

[Phil Hill]

Originally posted by Chicane
The FACTORY engineers need to make engines with a limited budget.

I disagree, car manufacturers spend millions on engine design, they design engines that make acceptable power over an acceptable lifespan, not withstanding the fact that the owner may be : mechanically abusive, neglectful of maintenance, use third party service parts, poor quality or incorrect grades of fuel and oil, do short journeys in cold climates, and all the other things that kill engines.

When "tuning" an engine, it's a compromise between what you can achieve and how long you want it to achieve it for. Example : Top fuel drag motor makes a huge amount of power, but gets rebuilt a couple of times a season, maybe after 2 miles of use. A 10 year old lawn mower motor makes bugger-all power, but you change the oil and the plug and shes good for another years mowing. Somewere in-between there's an acceptable compromise for a vehicle engine. If it's a low performance cheap car you can build the engine on the "good enough" basis that it fits together and runs ok. The engine may be of an older design and be more tolorant to abuse. Overhead valve 4 cylinder teritory. If it's a luxuary vehicle you want a high quality engine that has a long life, plenty of power and big service intervals. And you end up with the Northstar V8 or something like. If it's a high performance vehicle you want an engine that spins up rapidly, and produces lots of power for a low overall weight, we're in japanese motorcycle engine teritory here.

In the real world the compromise is going to be service life, not cost. The manufacturer has built in some margin to allow the engine to live for 100K miles running the same oil it left the factory with. When you modify an engine you have to realise you are eating into that margin. Don't get me wrong, just about every vehicle I've owned I've modified, and I love it !!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, anything is possible with work, change is enevitable, except from a vending machine........

[upnygimp]

The way I see it, the SVX was never meant to be a drag car. If you REALLY want a fast car that will run 10s, go buy somethin else.

For the money you would have to sink in, you could prolly go buy a nice Civic, do an ITR engine swap with a large turbo attatched to it, upgrade suspension, brakes, and everything so it can handle the new power. And NOS if you really feel like it. Then you will have a fast car. It will not be a SVX, but it will be fast. You see the point? I have a good feeling that you will finish dumping your $25k into it, you will only be running 13s. I hope to be proved wrong, but I dont think it will happen.

A civic was never meant to be a drag car eaither. Even less so than the SVX. I think most of us on here dont just want ANYTHING thats fast. We want the "SVX" to go fast...or else we would have gotten something else in the first place.