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  #16  
Old 03-29-2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post
Did you try jumping the starter solenoid from the battery? Check if the wire that plugs into the starter solenoid is getting power when you turn the key at all.

I found an old post in which the starter wasn't getting enough amperage to turn over due to having used too small of wires for the NSS clutch switch in manual swapped cars. I used a relay that powers the starter off the battery, starts up every time now.
The first solution proposed here is a band-aid fix - I'm really hoping to acquire the knowledge necessary to find out what is really WRONG here, and correct it as such. Hence my main point of my post - to find wiring schematics and/or physical component locations, as well as seeing if the OP has any new light to shed on their situation that would be beneficial knowledge to the rest of us.

My NSS is nothing but a control circuit - there is no current flowing through it, (certainly didn't route the 30amps for the starter solenoid through it!) so the gauge of wiring used should be of little to no consequence. Additionally, I did the set-up I did after several "Q&A" sessions with Huck, who is and has been running a similar setup on his 5speed swapped cars for quite a while without issue.
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94 LSi 5spd Barcelona Red, 14Xk miles.

Full custom exhaust (Stebro cat-back, custom rest of the way forward) 8000K HID kit from Tom (SVXfiles), Energy Suspension front sway bar bushings, Non-Droopy visors, Race Concepts C/D + Dimpled Rotors, Axxis Ultimate pads,SS brake lines, Bontrager Works #009 (or something like that), stripped interior.

(up next) Full cage, fuel cell, 327 swap
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  #17  
Old 03-29-2011, 10:43 AM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Find my thread "ecu making noise". There is a schematic for the starting circuit there.
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  #18  
Old 03-29-2011, 01:27 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridered777 View Post
The first solution proposed here is a band-aid fix
It sure is, and I'd rather be able to find out what the problem is too, but I'm too busy these days to chase down stupid electrical problems.

Is your NSS wired through the harness that used to lead through the automatic? I noticed those wires were pretty thick, which made me think that the current for the starter was supposed to flow through there. I'm going to check over the diagrams as well to see if I can figure it out.
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project

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  #19  
Old 03-29-2011, 01:35 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Here's the starter wiring diagram, looks like the current for the starter solenoid does go through the neutral switch.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Starter circuit.jpg (26.7 KB, 406 views)
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project

'97 Ebony LSi ~137k #036.......Power mode mod, JDM clear corners, BBS wheels. AUX/pocket mod

Now a mod "over there" ............Photo album
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  #20  
Old 03-30-2011, 04:29 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Excellent, thats what I was looking for. Now I just need a day off and nice weather... Looks like a foot of snow on friday...

Does anyone have wiring diagrams showing the schematics for the control wires involved in this circuit - i.e. what parameters need to be satisfied in the security schematic to cause pins 2 and 4 on component B73 to be connected? As well as the inhibitor switch.

I'm also going to check the wires for my NSS, I ran them through the firewall and grabbed the wiring harness on the other side. Time to check for some melting...
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94 LSi 5spd Barcelona Red, 14Xk miles.

Full custom exhaust (Stebro cat-back, custom rest of the way forward) 8000K HID kit from Tom (SVXfiles), Energy Suspension front sway bar bushings, Non-Droopy visors, Race Concepts C/D + Dimpled Rotors, Axxis Ultimate pads,SS brake lines, Bontrager Works #009 (or something like that), stripped interior.

(up next) Full cage, fuel cell, 327 swap
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  #21  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:23 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridered777 View Post
Does anyone have wiring diagrams showing the schematics for the control wires involved in this circuit - i.e. what parameters need to be satisfied in the security schematic to cause pins 2 and 4 on component B73 to be connected? As well as the inhibitor switch.
B73 means the starter interrupt relay that is the usual culprit. This can be bypassed altogether or replaced with a better relay. This has been covered several times.

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Originally Posted by ridered777 View Post
I'm also going to check the wires for my NSS, I ran them through the firewall and grabbed the wiring harness on the other side. Time to check for some melting...
Mine are some speaker wire I found, but I pulled the harness inside the car and tucked it behind the A/C stuff. But it seems to me that that crappy, skinny wire isn't letting enough current through to the starter solenoid. What gauge of wire did you use?
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project

'97 Ebony LSi ~137k #036.......Power mode mod, JDM clear corners, BBS wheels. AUX/pocket mod

Now a mod "over there" ............Photo album
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:38 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post
B73 means the starter interrupt relay that is the usual culprit. This can be bypassed altogether or replaced with a better relay. This has been covered several times.
That relay has already been replaced once by me - I'll be jumpering it for my tests. I was hoping someone would have the wiring schematic of the CONTROL circuit for said relay (presumably of the security circuit, showing what has to happen in the security circuit to trigger that to connect)

Quote:
Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post

Mine are some speaker wire I found, but I pulled the harness inside the car and tucked it behind the A/C stuff. But it seems to me that that crappy, skinny wire isn't letting enough current through to the starter solenoid. What gauge of wire did you use?
I used very small control wire- smaller than speaker wire. However upon close inspection after work yesterday, I could find no melting or other signs of issue in the wiring. If the NSS is where my current disappears, I'll have to test the switch to ensure proper functionality.

Thanks for the help folks - need this snowstorm weather to leave the NorthEast soon so I can tear into this on a day off!
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94 LSi 5spd Barcelona Red, 14Xk miles.

Full custom exhaust (Stebro cat-back, custom rest of the way forward) 8000K HID kit from Tom (SVXfiles), Energy Suspension front sway bar bushings, Non-Droopy visors, Race Concepts C/D + Dimpled Rotors, Axxis Ultimate pads,SS brake lines, Bontrager Works #009 (or something like that), stripped interior.

(up next) Full cage, fuel cell, 327 swap
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  #23  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:40 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

See what kind of voltage your getting on both ends of the small wire. This will shed light on whether it is too small.
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'92 Ls-L Dark Teal
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ECUTUNE STAGE 2AV1 ECU
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Balanced & Blueprinted
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2011, 09:42 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridered777 View Post
That relay has already been replaced once by me - I'll be jumpering it for my tests. I was hoping someone would have the wiring schematic of the CONTROL circuit for said relay (presumably of the security circuit, showing what has to happen in the security circuit to trigger that to connect)
Not sure, look at the wiring diagrams linked here: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...579#post671579

If you need help following the wires lemme know, I have a wiring harness that I pulled out of a car ('92) that I can look at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridered777 View Post
I used very small control wire- smaller than speaker wire. However upon close inspection after work yesterday, I could find no melting or other signs of issue in the wiring. If the NSS is where my current disappears, I'll have to test the switch to ensure proper functionality.
I guess it could be the switch itself too, that's a good point.
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'94 Laguna Blue LSi ~159k.......JDM ultra short-geared 3.900 STi Version 7 6-speed w/ Cobb shortshifter, ECUtune 244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm i/e cams, group N motor mounts, '97 grille, JDM clear corners, Momo JDM Legacy GT steering wheel, apkarian's LED tails, silver STi BBS wheels, PWR radiator, redstuff pads f/r, drilled/slotted rotors, bontragerworks rsb #18, Koni/GC 450f/375r coilovers, Megan Racing adjustable lateral links, KMac c/c plates, Stebro exhaust, ECUtune 1v5, Optima battery in the trunk where it belongs. Turbo project

'97 Ebony LSi ~137k #036.......Power mode mod, JDM clear corners, BBS wheels. AUX/pocket mod

Now a mod "over there" ............Photo album
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2011, 12:47 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post
Not sure, look at the wiring diagrams linked here: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...579#post671579

If you need help following the wires lemme know, I have a wiring harness that I pulled out of a car ('92) that I can look at.



I guess it could be the switch itself too, that's a good point.
Just thought I'd update, though I doubt my fix will help anyone else in the future

After ALOT of current and voltage drop testing, plus pulling apart the steering column, and the harness that goes through the firewall, I discovered my issue (over a weeks worth of work later!)

It appears that on one of the times I put my starter back in (after the 5 speed swap, I'd pulled the starter on 2 more occasions to deal with the occasional starting issue by cleaning the starter and solenoid, which I later realized was probably relay related). Anyway, on the most recent installation, when the car worked perfect for 6 days then completely died, it appears I installed the control wire connector on upside down.

It was just sitting down by my starter solenoid waiting to be plugged back in. I'm assuming it wiggled off over those 6 days.

This time I made sure to install it the right way so I hear the CLICK!

She turns over and starts every time now. Lets hope this lasts. And for gods sake if you're having this problem, check all your connections before you tear the car apart!
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94 LSi 5spd Barcelona Red, 14Xk miles.

Full custom exhaust (Stebro cat-back, custom rest of the way forward) 8000K HID kit from Tom (SVXfiles), Energy Suspension front sway bar bushings, Non-Droopy visors, Race Concepts C/D + Dimpled Rotors, Axxis Ultimate pads,SS brake lines, Bontrager Works #009 (or something like that), stripped interior.

(up next) Full cage, fuel cell, 327 swap
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  #26  
Old 04-19-2011, 11:45 AM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by icingdeath88 View Post
Here's the starter wiring diagram, looks like the current for the starter solenoid does go through the neutral switch.

This thread helped me to solve my click-click no start issue...somewhat. My question is, in the diagram above, where does the clutch position switch sit in a 5MT swap if executed per Huck's instructions (2 wires from clutch position switch to connector in the engine bay)?

I know the clutch position switch is in the circuit somewhere because my "fix" for my click-click no start issue was to run a wire from the starter interrupt relay (the one on the steering column) straight to the starter solenoid. Starts every time with that setup, but It also bypasses the clutch position switch because now it will start with the clutch out. Not a huge deal to me, and I could leave it this way if necessary, but I'd like to keep it operating via the clutch.

I checked the voltage going to my clutch switch in the "start" position and it's good (12v), so my feeling is that i have an issue in the security module/inhibitor switch which occasionally causes voltage at the starter solenoid in "start" position to fall to 6v (because the clutch switch itself checks out OK). This fact makes me believe that the clutch position switch is located in between the starter interrupt relay and the inhibitor switch. True?

It's looking like my final fix will be to run a wire from the clutch position switch directly to the starter solenoid so that it gets sufficient voltage every time. Will this have any tradeoffs other than losing my theft deterrence (which I keep "off" anyway because I don't have a FOB and don't like when I occasionally accidentally trip the alarm)?

Mat
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92 SVX LS-L - Ebony Pearl - 2002 WRX 5MT trans w/STi gearset (rebuilt & installed myself ) - BMW E46 HID retrofit - Kenwood Headunit - Phoenix Gold 75x4 RMS amp - Alpine Type R 6.5" front components - Alpine Type R 6x9 3way rear speakers - 18"x9" Rota G-Force wheels w/225/40ZR18 Toyo T1R's - Mychailo's custom springs - Urethane front & rear sway bar bushings - KC exhaust (2.5" dual magnaflow) - Escaine seat swap - Removed Spoiler

I don't care if Subaru says it's STI...it will always be STi to me

Last edited by SVX10; 04-19-2011 at 11:48 AM.
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  #27  
Old 04-19-2011, 12:57 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam View Post
See what kind of voltage your getting on both ends of the small wire. This will shed light on whether it is too small.
speaker wire is for speakers! Just get a few feet of decent wire... All you can do with a car is go someplace in it. Not even that if it won.t start.

Keith
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2011, 03:48 PM
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Re: Sometimes start issue

So I went ahead and ran a wire straight from the clutch switch to the starter solenoid. Problem is that this cuts out a tie into the MPFI module, so it starts very sluggishly. Additionally, it didn't work every time either. I put in a new clutch position switch and that fixed it, for a few starts, then it went back to not working. Finally i soldered some of the connections to the clutch switch and so far it's been working fine. Might have just been a loose connection in the wiring to the clutch switch!
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Time for my very own long list of mods:
92 SVX LS-L - Ebony Pearl - 2002 WRX 5MT trans w/STi gearset (rebuilt & installed myself ) - BMW E46 HID retrofit - Kenwood Headunit - Phoenix Gold 75x4 RMS amp - Alpine Type R 6.5" front components - Alpine Type R 6x9 3way rear speakers - 18"x9" Rota G-Force wheels w/225/40ZR18 Toyo T1R's - Mychailo's custom springs - Urethane front & rear sway bar bushings - KC exhaust (2.5" dual magnaflow) - Escaine seat swap - Removed Spoiler

I don't care if Subaru says it's STI...it will always be STi to me
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