Oil Discussion

nubsjr, thanks for the comment. Do you use the whole treatment or only for the oil? This stuff sounds good and I could use any increased mileage. Any one else have any experience with this stuff? Thanks. Bill

<<< right after a 1000 mile break in period. It seemed to give the car a small increase in fuel mileage > >>

The 1000 mile period is really only a piston ring setting period. They achieve their "groove" in the cylinder wall at that point and "seal" the piston in the cylinder. My 89 GL didn't start to "loosen up" until sometime after 10,000 miles. Subarus stay tight for a long time. Our 98 Forester is still very crisp to start with 46,000 on it. This might be a reason for their long life, by the time they start to wear out they are just coming into tolerance

Again, I don't think Subaru would tell us to change the oil less often than necessary compared to the other fluid schedules.

[jscorse]

Hey, lightning,
I have a '98 Forester! Cool! Anyway, does yours make a somewhat loud valve sound? Clack, clack. I've had it looked at and they say it's normal. It's not huge and it seems to subside after a few minutes. I don't know if it's just 'different' than my SVX.

- Jeff

[nubs]

Bill, I use all of the treatment, oil,gas and tranny. Like I said before don't know if it helps a whole lot but I don't think it is hurting anything by using it.

<<Anyway, does yours make a somewhat loud valve sound? Clack, clack.>>

Yep. Only until it reaches operating temp. My SVX makes a little noise also at first and lasts until it starts to reach temp.

Unfortunately for the Forester it needs a trip to the body shop. While my wife was on the interstate the other day a piece of construction material (description sounds like concrete backer board) fell off a truck and smashed into the grill, went up the hood into the windshiel, off the right fender and took out the heated electric mirror. About $2000 in damage. The Forester is the same color as your SVX I think, black with little red metal flakes in it. A perfect traveling machine for the wife, myself and the six year old boy.

[Aredubjay]

<<<<Anyway, does yours make a somewhat loud valve sound? Clack, clack.>>

Yep. Only until it reaches operating temp. My SVX makes a little noise also at first and lasts until it starts to reach temp. >>

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (as if I have to ask), but, isn't that merely the lash adjusters . . . um . . . adjusting?

<<isn't that merely the lash adjusters . . . um . . . adjusting? >>

Something like that. Probably caused by the oil being thick because of its temperature. They probably don't fill completely until the oil thins enough to flow quickly. This, I think, leaves a little space for them to move. The lash adjusters are hydraulic which allows them to have zero clearance (lash) and they sort of ride along the cam. If there is clearance then they get smacked when the cam comes around. Sounds much worse than it is but works as a good psychological safety to keep me from tromping the engine while it is warming up.

[eddycat2000]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
[BSomeone correct me if I'm wrong (as if I have to ask), but, isn't that merely the lash adjusters . . . um . . . adjusting? [/B]

Lash adjusters have a valve in them, they should not need to adjust up, unless the valve is bad or the feed to them is clogged or restricted. A restricted, or poor oil feed can and does include an oil filter that drains back. If they sit overnight and the (engine to lash adjuster) valve pressure can dump oil, then you can get some clatter from a crappy oil filter. (I know you are a purist like me, I think you'd agree never use anything but a genuine subaru filter). So it takes the oil pump a few seconds to refill the lash adjusters.

This is not directed at anyone here, but why on earth would you buy a 35k dollar car and then look for the cheapest oil filter, oil, spark plugs, brakes, or what have you for it? Dumbest things I've seen posted are about people wanting cheap brake parts...You're driving a 3,000 lb+ car with 230 hp, and you want cheap brake parts! I'll shed a tear at yer funeral...not.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by eddycat2000


Lash adjusters have a valve in them, they should not need to adjust up, unless the valve is bad or the feed to them is clogged or restricted. A restricted, or poor oil feed can and does include an oil filter that drains back. If they sit overnight and the (engine to lash adjuster) valve pressure can dump oil, then you can get some clatter from a crappy oil filter. (I know you are a purist like me, I think you'd agree never use anything but a genuine subaru filter). So it takes the oil pump a few seconds to refill the lash adjusters.

This is not directed at anyone here, but why on earth would you buy a 35k dollar car and then look for the cheapest oil filter, oil, spark plugs, brakes, or what have you for it? Dumbest things I've seen posted are about people wanting cheap brake parts...You're driving a 3,000 lb+ car with 230 hp, and you want cheap brake parts! I'll shed a tear at yer funeral...not.

I'm sorry to disappoint you eddy. I'm not THAT much of a purist. I use the Castrol extra heavy duty filter along with my Castrol GTX oil. I refuse to pay the premium price for an oil filter at the dealership and further refuse to wait on a filter through mail order. Of course, the thing that struck me the first time I changed my oil was, "what's with the 'piss ant' oil filter?" You'd think it would be a bit "beefier." Perhaps you can explain the logic behind it (I'm not being a wise acre -- I'm serious).

Meanwhile, "spot on" with the "cheap brake parts" scenario. That is a case of "major dumbness."

<< but why on earth would you buy a 35k dollar car and then look for the cheapest oil filter, oil, spark plugs, brakes, or what have you for it? >>

Most auto makers do not produce their own parts and contract out a lot of sub components. These components are chosen by their "generic" nature and are quoted by price, delivery, quality. Yes, usually in that order. There is nothing magical about an oil filter. A can, gasket, membrane and (if required) a check valve. Subaru specs out things like flow rate, max paticle size allowed, max allowable dimensions and so on. Their supplier in turn tries to make the absolute cheapest filter to meet these rquirements thereby winning the contract. However, Subaru buys these filters in large quantities (because they need to be painted a certain color and have the company logo on them) and then inventories them. Inventory carrying costs add to the cost of the replacement part. If you think you are getting the best filter for your car by buying one from Subaru you are. You're getting the one that was designed to match its specifications at the lowest production price. Because part of that price is Subaru specific packaging sacrifices are made elsewhere in materials.

Sorry, just manufacturing reality.

[eddycat2000]

Originally posted by lightning_8669


Sorry, just manufacturing reality.

Well, dang, I've just been given a lesson in outsourcing! Forgive me for not realizing that these outsource companies might have some sort of minimum standards to meet! I bow to your words of wisdom and never will again say that something that isn't built in a genuine subaru factory is factory approved. Of course I think Hitachi, Nippon denso, and *Nissan* might disagree, but you know bags more about manufacturing than me.

BTW, Aredub, I don't know why the filters look wimpy to you, they look fine to me. Maybe the fact that I expect to pay a premium price for a (ooohhh no) factory approved part makes me more receptive to the cost involved.

I don't cobble together a car, my own, or anyone elses. And guess what, I've never had to use a tow service either. I would like to see if the extra bucks we spend on tow service on the insurance is worth a darn though.

<<And guess what, I've never had to use a tow service either. I would like to see if the extra bucks we spend on tow service on the insurance is worth a darn though.>>

I've spent a good bit of money on towing, right after my "genuine" Subaru timing belt shredded after 25,000 miles. Of course, my "genuine" Subaru remanufactured tranny installed a month ago is already leaking through its "genuine" rear seal and "genuine" pan gasket. One reason a dealership "pushes" "genuine" parts is to move inventory.

Subaru's filter supplier is likely someone who makes aftermarket product for us weekend mechanics. These guys produce for a range and will make their filters meet the top requirement level of the application range. I've dealt in the automotive arena and understand the difference between a half penny means losing a production contract. The SVX filter costs what it does for two reasons, one, they have inventoried them for nearly a decade and, two, you are paying for the "custom" paint job. Where do you think the filter supplier is going to cut costs after he finds the cheapest paint to use? I'd rather spend the carrying cost and paint job money on a filter that works as well or better.

Care to check my occupation in my profile eddy? I'll discuss manufacturing concepts until your nipples collapse.


Ewwww, sorry for the visual guys

[Aredubjay]

<<The SVX filter costs what it does for two reasons, one, they have inventoried them for nearly a decade and, two, you are paying for the "custom" paint job.>>

Ah, but you stopped at the manufacturing level. You left off "mark up," which, I found out from SOA, when I inquired as to why a transmission in Evansville, Indiana costs almost twice as much as, in, say, Hawaii, informed me that their "independent" dealerships are allowed to charge what they want to.

<<"mark up," >>


It really isn't a factor in the discussion regarding stock vs. off-brand. You will likely see variance between stores in a national chain of auto parts stores too. The markup may even be greater in a chain store than at a dealer as a matter of percentage. The difference is the base cost is less because it doesn't have a custom aspect to it. For instance, all Fram filters say Fram, have the Fram logo and are painted the same color orange. This allows for extensive manufacturing cost savings in commonality and economies of scale. If NAPA charges $2 for a Fram filter for an SVX they may be able to purchase the filter from Fram for $1 and mark it up 100%. Subaru buys the filter form their supplier (Fram?) and because of the custom handling it cost them $2 and they mark it up to $3 their markup is only 50%. Don't anybody go slamming me on the numbers here, they are only for explanation purposes.

I don't know if Fram advertises it as such but if they say their product meets or exceeds OEM specifications then, by law, it has to. I'm sure Subaru buys filters from someplace the public can also buy them from. My guess is they keep that information guarded pretty well.

[eddycat2000]

Originally posted by lightning_8669
[BCare to check my occupation in my profile eddy? I'll discuss manufacturing concepts until your nipples collapse.


[/B]

I don't have to, I know what you do for a living. And I'll certainly discuss "concepts" with you all day long if you'd like. Then we can spend the next day talking Subaru repair "concepts".

As far as filters go, yes I read and backed up a couple of posts, Subaru did indeed have a contract with fram filters to build the oil filters in the early 1980's. That would've been until subaru bought several engines because the things blew up when the temp got below -20 degrees. (A common thing in Montana). I don't know who they are using now, but I do know that right before I quit the Subaru dealership there was a memo out that stated that many quicky lube places were buying engines because the cheapo filters they were using were coming apart on unsuspecting customers.

I'm sorry you have such disdain for genuine parts...I'll keep using them. Just a side note, I wouldn't work on your car either...not with aftermarket parts. Even when I do a side job now and then, I make the price cheaper by lowering my labor rate, not the quality of the parts.