Crossfire/Magnum/300C

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Landshark
no, but they've been more reliable so far than the many American cars i've owned in my life.

So that means that all American cars must be unreliable. Uh huh.

Originally posted by Landshark
quite the opposite - the domestic supporters have the fragile ego and must constantly defend their purchases. "parts are cheep! they aren't built that bad!"

Nice try. Next time use your own ideas, don't steal others and try to reverse them. Plus, you have some pretty bad grammatical errors in your quote - it should read "parts are NOT OVERPRICED! they AREN'T BUILT BAD!"

Originally posted by Noir
Shadow, depends on what you are comparing. We were discussing the general reliablility and quality of products created by those two companies. I showed a JD Power report that showed Chrysler has more different problems reported than Toyota. Not saying which company is better, just with less problems and are slightly more reliable. Nothings perfect. Not even the SVX.

Actually I think it depends on your definition of reliability.

Reliability simply means - does the car get you where you need to go? If it does, it's reliable, if not then it's not.

I would definetly agree that SOME American cars have more problems than SOME imports. But that doesn't mean they are less reliable. On my GTP, my windshield wipers are only partially functional. I have to jiggle the stalk to make them work. A problem? Yes. A reliabililty issue? No. My sunroof is similiar...it requires external motivation to operate (same as alot of SVX's i know of). Again, reliability issue? NOPE. In fact, with all the problems my GTP has had (not much compared to Mandi's SVX or my mom's infiniti) it has never been unable to get me to where i want to go. The biggest issue to me is the cost. It will cost me $70 and a sunny afternoon to fix the wiper stalk...it's a $600 job on my mom's infiniti. The sunroof will run about $200, compared to $1200 for the infiniti (yeah i know, it's an Infiniti, but keep in mind the Maxima is the exact same car and costs the same to fix). So what good is a car that doesn't give you many problems, if you can't afford to fix the ones it does give you? I'd rather be fixing this stupid little stuff weekly than taking out loans to replace transmissions and making 6 trips to the dealer to get rid of a "check engine light" that the "experts" can't find the reason for.

So sure, if you look at "problems per 100 cars" and consider that a determination of "reliability" than i would say that imports are more "reliable" than American cars. But what good does that do us? It's only numbers and doesn't put any money back in the bank accounts of those who have poured money into the three or four problems they've had with their imports.

[SubaSteevo]

We used to own an 89 Camry with 190+k on it. When we sold it a couple of months ago it still had the original engine (as in no work outside of normal maintainance). Many Toyotas can be found with 300+k on the original engine, and people will still buy them because they know it will last. If you try selling an American car with 300k, the first question asked would be "When was the engine last rebuilt/replaced?" Many of the American cars I've had experience don't make it to 90k without major work. Don't start a Toyota vs Chrysler reliability, EVERY report has put Toyota near the top and Chrysler slightly above average at best. All cars have problems, if you know someone who works at a Toyota dealer of course they're gonna think Toyotas have reliability problems, THAT'S ALL THEY SEE!

P.S. Chryslers are not built well

[Noir]

Originally posted by Porter
2600: The Washed-Up Internet Loser Quarterly

hehe. While on the John....I read one article. Not very impressed. Hope it gets better.

Hey Porter, don't insult the bible ok? It's something to live by.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Shadow248
So that means that all American cars must be unreliable. Uh huh.

Actually Shadow, if you reread Landshark's post, he stated that in his experience with American cars and foreign cars, he's had more reliable service from foreigns. That doesn't mean that all American cars are unreliable, just the ones he had owned. If you start blanketing all Landsharks statements, you'll be making false generalizations like Rob.

Originally posted by Shadow248
Actually I think it depends on your definition of reliability.

Glad we are trying to iron out what we each mean.

Originally posted by Shadow248
Reliability simply means - does the car get you where you need to go? If it does, it's reliable, if not then it's not.

Your definition of Reliability does not encompass everything I consider reliable. Something that yields the same or compatible results is considered Reliable to me.

A car is designed to get me from point A to point B safely. If problems frequently occur to terminate my travel from point A to point B, then I consider the car unreliable. Frequent engine failures would deem a car unreliable, but aren't there other factors that will also yield unreliability? For instance, in your example, if your windshield wipers worked intermittently would you consider the mechanism to be unreliable? If you have a unreliable windshield wiping mechanism not function when it's pouring down rain and you have to pull over because of visibility problems, would you consider that unreliable during storms? I would. How about if your headlights didn't work? If you could not drive at night because your lights didn't work, would you consider that your car was unreliable during dark hours? There are many other examples that would illustrate what I consider reliable and unreliable, but I hope you see my point.

Another issue that affects my opinion of the reliablility of the car would be how often the car would be unavailable to me due to problems that arise through ownership. If I have to frequently take the car into the dealership (or any mechanic for that matter) to fix any problems that arise no matter how small, I consider that unreliable. I need the car to take me from point A to point B at a particular time and the option of using that vehicle to accomplish my goal is unavailable due to repairs. That's unreliable. Because of that, the more number of problems reported that has to be fix would make the car availibility to the owner less which I consider unreliable because the mode of transportation (driving a car purchased with my money and time) will not yield the results (of getting from point A to point B) when I need it.

Originally posted by Shadow248
I would definetly agree that SOME American cars have more problems than SOME imports. But that doesn't mean they are less reliable. On my GTP, my windshield wipers are only partially functional. I have to jiggle the stalk to make them work. A problem? Yes. A reliabililty issue? No. My sunroof is similiar...it requires external motivation to operate (same as alot of SVX's i know of). Again, reliability issue? NOPE. In fact, with all the problems my GTP has had (not much compared to Mandi's SVX or my mom's infiniti) it has never been unable to get me to where i want to go. The biggest issue to me is the cost. It will cost me $70 and a sunny afternoon to fix the wiper stalk...it's a $600 job on my mom's infiniti. The sunroof will run about $200, compared to $1200 for the infiniti (yeah i know, it's an Infiniti, but keep in mind the Maxima is the exact same car and costs the same to fix). So what good is a car that doesn't give you many problems, if you can't afford to fix the ones it does give you? I'd rather be fixing this stupid little stuff weekly than taking out loans to replace transmissions and making 6 trips to the dealer to get rid of a "check engine light" that the "experts" can't find the reason for.

So sure, if you look at "problems per 100 cars" and consider that a determination of "reliability" than i would say that imports are more "reliable" than American cars. But what good does that do us? It's only numbers and doesn't put any money back in the bank accounts of those who have poured money into the three or four problems they've had with their imports.

I'm not bringing in cost of repairs into the discussion. That's another topic for another day . Assuming that within the 3 year period, the problems reported were covered under the factory warranty and we do not consider money as an issue, however many problems you have to take into the shop to fix and how long your mobility is restricted to other forms of transportation would determine the reliability of vehicle in my opinion.

[Landshark]

So that means that all American cars must be unreliable. Uh huh.

Shadow, i'm guessing that you never scored high in reading comprehension in school, so i guess i'll try this yet again.

i am not saying that all American cars are unreliable, OK?

lets try an analogy: you see a peace activist on the street - they stand there and explain their ideas on how violence is wrong, people should live in peace, etc. when they least expect it, you throw a roundhouse punch to the side of their head, knocking them to the ground. you then apologize and offer to help them up, and ask them to please continue what they were saying. after they begin talking again, <BAM!> you give them an uppercut to the jaw! again, you apologize, and ask them to continue speaking. once the activist starts speaking again, you kick them square in the nuts.

with me so far? after my lifetime experience of getting beat up by American cars, and seeing friends and family suffer, i didn't want to get pummeled anymore. i was unfamiliar with imports, but i thought "i am willing to learn." yes, parts are more expensive, but then again so is my time. i would rather pay more for a part, and have to replace it less often.

does all that make sense to you? it would be stupid to say "all American cars are unreliable." in *my* experience, American cars have caused me much aggravation and time in my garage/trips to the repair shop. the three foreign cars (ok, two - i won't count the WRX because it was brand new) i have owned were such a nice surprise as far as reliability. these weren't Honda Civics or Toyota Camry's, either. my '87 928, was a low production, high performance flagship of the Porsche line in its day. we all know the SVX was the same for Subaru. in 6 years of ownership, the 928 cost me $110 in repairs (coolant leak, fixed at Porsche dealer no less.) in two years, the SVX has cost me around $80 (bad coil pack). all in all, a big majority of my money went into mods and routine and preventative maintenance. i better clarify for Rob on this - preventative maintenance means changing your sparkplugs at 60k miles, not when the engine starts missing.

long post - comprende Senor Shadow? i'll say it again for good measure - you listen, too, Mr. Robert - every American car is not unreliable. Foreign cars can be UNreliable. in my experience, after driving American cars for most of my life, the last 6 years of import experience has been a more pleasant one for me. ok? everyone take their Ritalin today?

with that said, have i earned the right to throw cheap shots about the Big 3's quality control standards? you betcha!

Originally posted by Noir


hehe. While on the John....I read one article. Not very impressed. Hope it gets better.

Hey Porter, don't insult the bible ok? It's something to live by.

Come on man, real hackers laugh at that thing. The real security experts that I have known consider it a debating society for has-been text BBS hackers from the late '80s. They're all chatting in their text based MUDs and fantasizing about how badass they were for breaking in to largely-undefended UNIX mainframes back in the day.

"Wow dude, that DEC VAX system back in '89 was a real doozie... I had to go through a back door to get in! I'm the greatest hacker evAr, and I did it all at only 2400 baud!"

[SubaSteevo]

I'm l33t yo!

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by BurgundyBeast
We used to own an 89 Camry with 190+k on it. When we sold it a couple of months ago it still had the original engine (as in no work outside of normal maintainance). Many Toyotas can be found with 300+k on the original engine, and people will still buy them because they know it will last. If you try selling an American car with 300k, the first question asked would be "When was the engine last rebuilt/replaced?" Many of the American cars I've had experience don't make it to 90k without major work. Don't start a Toyota vs Chrysler reliability, EVERY report has put Toyota near the top and Chrysler slightly above average at best. All cars have problems, if you know someone who works at a Toyota dealer of course they're gonna think Toyotas have reliability problems, THAT'S ALL THEY SEE!

My dad had a 1992 Grand Prix SE with 210,000 miles on it, and a 1985 Silverado with 190,000 miles. My friend and his dad are independent bike reps, they buy nothing but Chevy trucks. He had a tahoe with 280,000 miles on it, his dad had a suburban with 230,000 miles on it, they then both bought 2000 silverados which now both have over 100,000 miles on them. Another friend of mine's father has a 1988 Chevy van with over 200,000 miles on it. My brother's 1969 Camaro has over 200,000 miles on it. My GTP now has 130,000 miles on it. The point to this? Here is the list of non-routine maintenance done on those cars COMBINED - 3 starters, 1 transmission, 1 intake manifold, 5 alternators, 1 engine (on the camaro). I'd like to see ANY group of imports match that. Even if they did, cost of repairs and the time it took to do those repairs would be more than double.

I have seen only a few reports with Toyota at the top. CR's list put toyota right around subaru (which was 14th out of 40), and they rarely appear on Car&Driver's 10 best. I'm not by any means defending chrysler, i am not a fan either. I am just sick and tired of this ridiculous marketing manipulation.

About my uncle, the toyota service manager...he's been at that dealer for 8 years...he worked at a honda dealer for 3 years before that and at a Chevy dealer for 10 years before that. Plus he does independent work on various cars outside of his garage. Also note - Toyota dealers don't ONLY fix toyotas.

Originally posted by Noir
Actually Shadow, if you reread Landshark's post, he stated that in his experience with American cars and foreign cars, he's had more reliable service from foreigns. That doesn't mean that all American cars are unreliable, just the ones he had owned. If you start blanketing all Landsharks statements, you'll be making false generalizations like Rob.

Then the shark goes on to mock those who own American cars. This is the problem. He can own what he chooses. Then to top it off, when I do the same thing he does in reverse (mock import owners), he get's all defensive and suddenly i'm da devil. Another problem.

Originally posted by Noir
Your definition of Reliability does not encompass everything I consider reliable. Something that yields the same or compatible results is considered Reliable to me.

Well if we disagree on this, we will never agree on anything else in this argument. We are talking about two completely different things. Cost of ownership and down-time are most important to me. American cars are cheaper overall per repair, and statistically repairs on American cars take only about 72% as long as import repairs. Those are just averages of course. My point is, 99% of the problems i have had with American cars, I can fix in my own driveway. Wipers, headlights, or pretty much any electrical issue can be fixed that easily. This has never been the case with imports. So again, I see no evidence to conclude that imports are more reliable in any way than american cars. But you disagree on what makes a car reliable, so it really doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Landshark
Shadow, i'm guessing that you never scored high in reading comprehension in school, so i guess i'll try this yet again.

HAHA. Again, nice try. I think you should leave the personal shots to Rob. His are much more entertaining at least, albeit just as inaccurate as yours. My strongest subject has always been reading. I hate math and i'm not good at it. Never got less than an A in any reading based or writing course. I was part of a group in high school that offered essay writing seminars, and I currently help out at the community college in their "learning center" I help students to write better papers and such. Point is, my comprehension is probably light-years beyond yours.

Originally posted by Landshark
i am not saying that all American cars are unreliable, OK?

You are, then you aren't, you are, then you aren't. Make up your mind. Am I like a cop to you or something? When i'm around, it's always "In my experience, American cars are unreliable". Then it seems when you think i'm not looking, it's "GM cars suck, they are complete junk...chrysler cars are CHEEP..." etc. Make up your mind. If you really did stay consistent with your comment above, I would never even bother with you. Just another brainwashed buyer who has bought into the advertising.

Originally posted by Landshark
with me so far? after my lifetime experience of getting beat up by American cars, and seeing friends and family suffer, i didn't want to get pummeled anymore. i was unfamiliar with imports, but i thought "i am willing to learn." yes, parts are more expensive, but then again so is my time. i would rather pay more for a part, and have to replace it less often.

Well if this is the case, then there's no point in arguing. You are just the opposite of me in this case. I would rather pay $100 once a month (and be without it one day each month) to fix my car than $1200 once a year (and be without it for two weeks). Though it's usually more like $20 a month vs. $1200 a year. Wish i had the time to sit down and figure out the yearly repair costs of some of the american cars i know of vs. some of the imports. That would be interesting.

Originally posted by Landshark
long post - comprende Senor Shadow? i'll say it again for good measure - you listen, too, Mr. Robert - every American car is not unreliable. Foreign cars can be UNreliable. in my experience, after driving American cars for most of my life, the last 6 years of import experience has been a more pleasant one for me. ok? everyone take their Ritalin today?

I'm really glad you said this. I am saving this statement and i will quote it from now on everytime i see you saying "GM cars are junk".

Originally posted by Landshark
with that said, have i earned the right to throw cheap shots about the Big 3's quality control standards? you betcha!

So then based on my experience with imports, i have earned the right to throw cheap shots at import quality standards. Ok. Cool.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Porter


Come on man, real hackers laugh at that thing. The real security experts that I have known consider it a debating society for has-been text BBS hackers from the late '80s. They're all chatting in their text based MUDs and fantasizing about how badass they were for breaking in to largely-undefended UNIX mainframes back in the day.

"Wow dude, that DEC VAX system back in '89 was a real doozie... I had to go through a back door to get in! I'm the greatest hacker evAr, and I did it all at only 2400 baud!"

lmao. Yes I'm getting that impression too. First article I read is how this one guy successfully got into a wifi network. Micky mouse in my opinion. What did they speak of in the entire article? That the Cisco router assigning IP was not password protected, they saw that the telnet port was open, and that the two operating systems being used was windows CE and windows 2000. It was really difficult to get into a cisco system that's not password protected....hmm..something to brag about....I don't know a single admin or company that would allow their cisco routers not be password protected. I've seen the CNN networks, Citigroup/Primerica, Norfolk Southern, Mindspring/Earthlink, Delta, AT&T, and Coke. Not a single router on their network is un-passord protected. I've also seen quite a few smaller companies are the same. Either that article is full of crap or New York admins aren't worth a dime.

Oh wait, but this guy actually 'hacked' a system because he got in. Your right Rob, I have to live by the bible.

Read 2 more articles...still waiting to be impressed.

The articles I read were about wifi networks. Common knowledge to me, I would never think about ever explaining any of it to anyone I know in the field...they already know about it. On the other hand, I guess it's good for people who have no knowledge of wireless technology, but if they have no knowledge, then they wouldn't understand what these writers were talking about...These articles seem to be geared towards people who have basic knowledge on wifi systems and networks who don't want to get deep into the nitty gritty.

Going to read some other articles later and also do a test. Going to pass it along to another friend of mine who's into bio-med research and see whether they understand the topics not related to their field (i.e. wifi).

Too bad Rob can't read this.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Shadow248
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Noir
Your definition of Reliability does not encompass everything I consider reliable. Something that yields the same or compatible results is considered Reliable to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well if we disagree on this, we will never agree on anything else in this argument. We are talking about two completely different things. Cost of ownership and down-time are most important to me. American cars are cheaper overall per repair, and statistically repairs on American cars take only about 72% as long as import repairs. Those are just averages of course. My point is, 99% of the problems i have had with American cars, I can fix in my own driveway. Wipers, headlights, or pretty much any electrical issue can be fixed that easily. This has never been the case with imports. So again, I see no evidence to conclude that imports are more reliable in any way than american cars. But you disagree on what makes a car reliable, so it really doesn't matter.

Ah, we both agree on the down-time issue.

More downtime = less reliability.

I left cost of ownership out of the discussion because it's the only way to compare the quality and reliablility of the vehicle/manufacturer straight off the production line. I mean if we all were mechanics, then the cars would be most reliable right? Not so. If everyone was a master mechanic, the number of times you have to spend effort to repair a problem and incur downtime (forget cost), wouldn't you consider that unreliable?

Remember the JD Powers report takes data from 3 years of ownership. More than likely the reported problems were repaired which means downtime occurred. Whether the owner had the ability to repair it himself or deemed his time to be more constructive doing another task instead of repairing it himself is another issue.

It is quite possible that any vehicle produced can reach 200-300k miles, but during the span of 3 years most vehicles don't hit that milage mark. I'm only stating that off the production line between 2 manufacturers Toyota and Chrysler, Toyota's within 3 years of ownership has less problems to repair whether critical or not, would mean less downtime and be more reliable for that span of time. If we are talking about higher mileage vehicles, then these numbers would not apply.

If Chrysler has less problems than Toyota's then I would agree that Chrysler was more reliable, which is very possible in the future. I'm also comparing only 2 manufacturers because Rob's issue was that Chryslers were more reliable and of better quality than Toyota's while Dayle was stating that Toyota's are more reliable than Chrysler . I wouldn't lump sum all domestic vehicles and foreign vehicles together. . It wouldn't be fair for the manufacturer .

[Landshark]

American cars are cheaper overall per repair, and statistically repairs on American cars take only about 72% as long as import repairs. Those are just averages of course.

that is rediculous. depends on the REPAIR being done, not the origin of the car.

Point is, my comprehension is probably light-years beyond yours.

yes, you are probably correct in Bizarro World.

Just another brainwashed buyer who has bought into the advertising.

what advertising? was someone filming me cursing out my Lumina, Cavalier, LeSabre, Horizon, or Malibu? maybe my brother-in-law pulling his hair out with his new Gran Prix? my uncle and his Jimmy? etc. etc. etc. etc. missed those commercials i guess.

Well if this is the case, then there's no point in arguing. You are just the opposite of me in this case. I would rather pay $100 once a month (and be without it one day each month) to fix my car than $1200 once a year (and be without it for two weeks). Though it's usually more like $20 a month vs. $1200 a year. Wish i had the time to sit down and figure out the yearly repair costs of some of the american cars i know of vs. some of the imports. That would be interesting.

now i know the problem - you're considering Bentleys, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Land Rovers, Jaguars and the like in your 'import' financial analysis. re-read my post again (comprehension?)......aw, forget it. here's the Cliff's Notes: Porsche, 6 years ownership, $110 repair bill. SVX, 2 years ownership, $80 repair bill. i've never had the 928, SVX, or WRX in the shop for more than a day. my Buick had spent several days in the shop before, and my Lumina had its very own service bay at the dealer it was there so much. i remember 5 trips to the dealer to fix the same problem even. spout statistics all you like, but i know my own reality.
you don't mind having your car in the shop once a month? you are out of your mind.

I'm really glad you said this. I am saving this statement and i will quote it from now on everytime i see you saying "GM cars are junk".

i wouldn't want to disappoint you - GM cars are junk.

[Noir]

lmao, now you guys are arguing about cost of ownership of a domestic car versus an import .

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Noir
lmao, now you guys are arguing about cost of ownership of a domestic car versus an import .

yeah, because it always turn into something else. stay tuned for my patriotism to be called into question next......

[Noir]

Originally posted by Shadow248
Well if this is the case, then there's no point in arguing. You are just the opposite of me in this case. I would rather pay $100 once a month (and be without it one day each month) to fix my car than $1200 once a year (and be without it for two weeks). Though it's usually more like $20 a month vs. $1200 a year. Wish i had the time to sit down and figure out the yearly repair costs of some of the american cars i know of vs. some of the imports. That would be interesting.

Actually, for the cost of ownership and repairs. I believe that the costs for repair for both domestics and imports are very similiar. The cost per hour rate ranges, but most dealerships whether domestic or import use the same fair market rates to stay competitive yet profitable. Also their accounting software for repairs estimates the time and materials needed for that repair. You will be charged for the estimated time suggested by the accounting package. The cost for parts for domestic maybe slightly cheaper than import, but not by much.

I remember taking our 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan to get a a/c condensor replaced at the Dodge dealership. It took 3 days and $1200 to fix. One year later I had to take in my 1995 Toyota Camry for the same problem to a Toyota dealership. It also took 3 days and the bill came up to be around $1300.

Remember cost of repair is very wishy washy.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Landshark


yeah, because it always turn into something else. stay tuned for my patriotism to be called into question next......

what? don't you both follow my command? i'm the supreme being...the ultimate leader. i have frodo's ring, therefore i am all your lord.

btw - where's Rob? i miss him.