US over to europan.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

That's excellent Nate.

Once he gets that wired in he will be away and clear.

Joe

Yes Joe, the point being that no one has provided this information.

I have just received an e-mail from Alex advising that he is now happy that he can obtain a US TCU but still is in the dark regarding wiring. He is going on holiday and will take the matter up again on his return.

This mess is a sorry demonstration of assistance currently available from the network. The too hard basket sits very close to many members.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Yes Joe, the point being that no one has provided this information.

I have just received an e-mail from Alex advising that he is now happy that he can obtain a US TCU but still is in the dark regarding wiring. He is going on holiday and will take the matter up again on his return.

This mess is a sorry demonstration of assistance currently available from the network. The too hard basket sits very close to many members.

You have a background in automotive electronics and you have the FSM's for a Euro SVX. So what is keeping you from being the assistant?

Tom

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

I can do this all day......... With quite a few less key strokes and bold letters

edit: also refer to post #33 for my logic and reasoning. If you are to call me a liar, then I highly suggest you look up the duty cycles not dependent upon wheel speed to prove me wrong

Tom

Tom,

At no time have I called you a liar, or suggested same. I have made it clear that I consider that you do not understand the issue.

Your post #33 ----

Trevor, everything I have said about this is based on an assumption. I have never stated anything more than that. Unlike you down unders I am OK with being wrong. So please, pretty please prove that the duty cycles are not reversed and that the Sol. C change would not fix his binding issues. I never said it would do more, but it would make it driveable. Until you do, you are pointing fingers.

Once these figures are posted, and I am indeed wrong I will admit my assumptions were incorrect. But you are nit-picking to try and find fault rather than trying to find a solution Tom

The above contains no "logic and reasoning". You have not given any reason why you state that the duty cycles are reversed. You have simply passed the buck. Even so I have accepted your side step and have explained exactly what you have called for.

You state "it would make it driveable". How? In what way? What would changing the solenoid in fact accomplish? How would it in any way improve the set up, much less fix it?

N.B. Alex is the one who could have suffered in regard to incorrect advice.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Tom,

At no time have I called you a liar, or suggested same. I have made it clear that I consider that you do not understand the issue.

Your post #33 ----

Trevor, everything I have said about this is based on an assumption. I have never stated anything more than that. Unlike you down unders I am OK with being wrong. So please, pretty please prove that the duty cycles are not reversed and that the Sol. C change would not fix his binding issues. I never said it would do more, but it would make it driveable. Until you do, you are pointing fingers.

Once these figures are posted, and I am indeed wrong I will admit my assumptions were incorrect. But you are nit-picking to try and find fault rather than trying to find a solution Tom

The above contains no "logic and reasoning". You have not given any reason why you state that the duty cycles are reversed. You have simply passed the buck. Even so I have accepted your side step and have explained exactly what you have called for.

You state "it would make it driveable". How? In what way? What would changing the solenoid in fact accomplish? How would it in any way improve the set up, much less fix it?

N.B. Alex is the one who could have suffered in regard to incorrect advice.

Because with a Vtd trans contolled by a US TCU it binds and a US trans with a VTD tcu it binds... SO using some common sense I made a deduction, AKA an assumption. That is why I ask for the duty rates that you have not posted yet, to either confirm or negate my assumptions. Until you do that, I am going to assume I am correct based on my experiences with the above scenario and Alex's current issue. I have said all this before

Tom

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

You have a background in automotive electronics and you have the FSM's for a Euro SVX. So what is keeping you from being the assistant?

Tom

Tom please make one accurate statement.

I do not, and have never stated that I --- "have a background in automotive electronics". My working life was as an industrial control systems design engineer.

I do not have FSM's for the Euro SVX.

These are the very reasons why I cannot assist. Furthermore I have not had hands on experience in what is involved.

By requesting that someone else provide this information, I have been happy to confirm that I do not have the required knowledge. In this instance you can not accuse me of saving face.

[TomsSVX]

I thought you had the FSM's for your car??

Tom

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Because with a Vtd trans contolled by a US TCU it binds and a US trans with a VTD tcu it binds... SO using some common sense I made a deduction, AKA an assumption. That is why I ask for the duty rates that you have not posted yet, to either confirm or negate my assumptions. Until you do that, I am going to assume I am correct based on my experiences with the above scenario and Alex's current issue. I have said all this before

Tom

Tom,

Your assumptions are not correct as I have explained and explained, They do not constitute common sense. The duty cycle/rates can not, do not,and will not affect that which is argued.

Each, any, every, duty rate transmitted by either TCU will constitute a signal whereby, a lengthening pulse will move a solenoid and a very short or zero pulse, will leave the solenoid in the rest or normal position.

The correct solenoid for either transmission takes this into account. Changing a solenoid valve such that the set up is wrong, will result in the VALVE moving in the wrong direction.

I have explained this fact, in every which way and that way possible. I sincerely hope that you have been concerned with loss of face, rather than that you are thick.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Because with a Vtd trans contolled by a US TCU it binds and a US trans with a VTD tcu it binds... SO using some common sense I made a deduction, AKA an assumption.

Agreed.

N.B. In both instances the transmissions were fitted with the correct solenoid.

But what has this to do with you advising Alex to change the solenoid. Your advice based on your assumption was/is wrong. Changing his solenoid will make any condition much worse. In no way can it improve it.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

I thought you had the FSM's for your car??

Tom

Tom, my car is a JDM.

But why involve the manuals. The ones I have most certainly do not contain information in respect of any duty rate/cycle. Only the end result of a signal comes within the sphere of the descriptions.

Bloody hell, you are certainly intent on causing me a lot of hard yacka. Very shortly from me It will be, Stone me crows, rattle ya daggs back to the sticks, the big smoke is bending ya noggin.

[Trevor]

Tom,

A very helpful post, which needs a second kick up the bum. Therefore, bump, bump.

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

On a side note, why has no one written up a schematic for him to wire the bellhousing mounted sensor into the TCU and cut the lead from the Hall sensor in the trans? This way he can do what you all are saying. I am not an electrical engineer, nor do I claim to be one. But I do know his tech's would need the pinout of the TCU and the sensor.

Tom

[oab_au]

These are the facts, as we know them.

1. We would expect the clutch, regardless of the type of AWD to work like this.
When it is idling, the clutch should be free.
When I floor the throttle, I expect the clutch to be full on.

2. The US TCU at idle, sends a 95% DC, and the clutch is free.
At full throttle it sends a 5% DC and the clutch is full on.

3. The VTD TCU at idle, sends a 5% DC, and the clutch is free.
At full throttle it sends a 95% DC, and the clutch is full on.

4. It is obvious that the signal must be reversed, for the two opposite TCU signals to produce the same results at the clutch.

5. As the C solenoid for the US trans is normally closed, and the VTD trans, is normally open, it is here at the C solenoid, where the change takes place.

6. Alex has a trans with a US C solenoid, and a VTD TCU. When it idles the 5% signal from the VTD TCU turns the US C solenoid fully on, causing a complete reversal of the TCUs intention, and the binding that he has.

7. He has two choices.
He gets his garage to swap the TCU over to a US TCU, and do the necessary wiring to use the different sensors.
He gets his garage to swap the C solenoid for a VTD one.

I believe that of the two jobs, swapping the C solenoid is a job that the garage would have no trouble doing.
The TCU swap, and wiring, is a Job that a person more familiar with a SVX may attempt, much harder to do over the Internet with a language problem.

As Joe points out, he may want to change back to a VTD one day.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

These are the facts, as we know them.

1. We would expect the clutch, regardless of the type of AWD to work like this.
When it is idling, the clutch should be free.
When I floor the throttle, I expect the clutch to be full on.

2. The US TCU at idle, sends a 95% DC, and the clutch is free.
At full throttle it sends a 5% DC and the clutch is full on.

3. The VTD TCU at idle, sends a 5% DC, and the clutch is free.
At full throttle it sends a 95% DC, and the clutch is full on.

4. It is obvious that the signal must be reversed, for the two opposite TCU signals to produce the same results at the clutch.

NO, WRONG. Those with intelligence, would expect the signal to be the same. If it were as you state, the solenoids would be the same. The acknowledged difference in solenoids, takes care of the difference in the transmission assemblies. There is no need for a "reversal" of the signal. It is surely "OBVIOUS" that the the signal is not required to be “reversed”.

5. As the C solenoid for the US trans is normally closed, and the VTD trans, is normally open, it is here at the C solenoid, where the change takes place.

Exactly, and it is why the signal is the same, for both transmissions.
But you have decreed that the signal is already changed, see 2 & 3 above. You can not have it both ways, and we Know for certain, on the basis of a physical fact, that the US System C is N/C, and the VTD system C is N/O.

N.B. This is an interesting admission. In a very simillar post to this, protracted, and confused, you stated in error, that solenoids in the two systems were the same and both were N/C. I proved otherwise. Exactly as in several other circumstances of proven mistakes, you did not acknowledge that you were wrong, much less apologise.

6. Alex has a trans with a US C solenoid, and a VTD TCU. When it idles the 5% signal from the VTD TCU turns the US C solenoid fully on, causing a complete reversal of the TCUs intention, and the binding that he has.

The binding is taking place, due to the VTD TCU signal being incorrect in respect timing, and the degree of application of the solenoid valves. The two clutches are very obviously, different in there requirements.

Alex has stated that when he inserts the fuse, front wheel drive only is engaged. Therefore the signal now is correct for the system. Changing the solenoid would result in the “reversal” of the current correct operation of the solenoid valve. What is more it would be rendered incorrect, for when he changes to a US TCU.

You are intent on involving Alex in the cost of a new solenoid, as well as the work of and cost of fitting it. Only to then find it wrong, thus involving restoring the transmission to original, and disposing of the useless solenoid valve.

My endless effort, has been carried on in order to ensure that Alex is not disadvantaged, as a result of information received from this forum.

The N/C solenoid valve at present fitted, MUST be left as it is, in order that it matches the transmission.

Your statements do not have credence or accuracy. You do not in fact, illustrate a whim of common sense. I have set out within the main thread, detailed information in several separate ways.

This information has been postewd more than once:-

#1 Normal VTD system. --- When increased front bias is required, the pulse length will be increased, in order to close a N/O solenoid, thus increasing pressure, to close a LSD clutch. The TCU will be programmed to increase the pulse lentgth.

#1 With Alex' car. --- When increased front bias is required the same increased pulse length command, will open a N/C soleoid, thus reducing pressure, to open the centre clutch. The TCU will be programmed to increase the pulse lentgth.

#2 Normal VTD system. --- When increased rear bias is required, the pulse length will be reduce, in order to open a N/O solenoid, thus reducing preasure, to open a LSD clutch. The TCU will be programmed reuuce the pulse lentgth.

#2 With Alex' car. --- When increased rear bias is required, the same reduced pulse length command, will close a N/C solenoid, thus increasing pressure, to close the centre clutch. The TCU will be programmed reuuce the pulse lentgth.

The above shows that at present the sequence is as required, and does not require the change in solenoid as you claim. However it is likely that the existing VTD programme will be unsuitable, given the different characteristics of the LSD and central clutch. Alternatively the binding reported, could very well be due to a fault in the used transmission as purchased. In any event, it must be accepted that he was badly served and at considerable cost.

Study my statements, refer to each item in turn, then if you can, in a logical manner prove them as incorrect. Do not come back endlessly side stepping, by means of meaningless dribble.

Trevor. Representing technical accuracy.

[TomsSVX]

Trevor, install the 4wd fuse for 100% DC in a VTD car and it locks 4wd.

Install the 4wd fuse in a US car and you get 100% DC and it defaults to FWD....

With that said, to apply 4WD in a VTD there is a higher percentage DC applied by the TCU.

to apply 4WD to a US TCU there is a lower percentage DC applied by the TCU.

Maybe this will help you see where I am comming from. There difference must be inside the TCU

Tom

[oab_au]

Alex has stated that when he inserts the fuse, front wheel drive only is engaged. Therefore the signal now is correct for the system. Changing the solenoid would result in the “reversal” of the current correct operation of the solenoid valve. What is more it would be rendered incorrect, for when he changes to a US TCU.

OK, I think you are placing a lot of your thinking around this statement, “Alex has stated that when he inserts the fuse, front wheel drive only is engaged. Therefore the signal now is correct for the system.”

This is right, but only when the fuse is inserted. This is the only time that the two TCU send the same signal for the same action. When the US fuse is inserted for FWD, the TCU sends a 95% signal to turn off the clutch. When the VTD fuse is in for DIFF LOCK, it sends a 95% signal, to turn on the clutch

The US trans has the clutch turned off, and the VTD has the clutch turned on. Its because the C solenoids are opposite to each other, that the US solenoid turns off the clutch. The VTD solenoid turns the clutch full on.

With Alex’s car, when the VTD TCU detects wheel spin, it will send a 95% signal to apply the clutch, but the US solenoid, being opposite, turns it into clutch off.
When he is turning tight, the VTD TCU sends a 5% signal to turn the clutch off, the US solenoid turns the clutch on, to cause the binding.

Changing the US solenoid for a VTD solenoid, will turn these signals back the right way, binding will not occur, and wheel spin will be prevented.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Trevor, install the 4wd fuse for 100% DC in a VTD car and it locks 4wd.

Install the 4wd fuse in a US car and you get 100% DC and it defaults to FWD....

With that said, to apply 4WD in a VTD there is a higher percentage DC applied by the TCU.

to apply 4WD to a US TCU there is a lower percentage DC applied by the TCU.

Maybe this will help you see where I am comming from. There difference must be inside the TCU

Tom

Please Tom, do not patronise me. I do not need your help in sorting a control system. What is more I have been very aware where you have been coming from, throughout the Journey. The confusion you are compounding, and the reason for it, is very easy to understand.

The percentage of the pulse length does not require alteration. In fact it must not be altered. The movement of the solenoid therefore can not be altered.

The difference in the two systems is corrected, by changing the effect of solenoid, movement in relation to the valve and hence the pressure controlled. You must view the final picture. The result of the signal. The intended effect of a command. The same signal is adjusted at the receiving end, to provide the desired result.

I am having a go at again explaining to Harvey. That post may also assist you. In point of fact I expect you to understand, much more quickly than he will. Even should he do so in time, he will never admit an error.

Sincerely, Trevor.