4WS Translation Completed!

[paddlesnz]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
Yes, Jeff. OUR 4WS is passive and only slightly existant. The "motorized" 4WS was only released, in limited supply in Japan.

The 4WS system was available as standard equipment on the top model Version L sold in Japan between 1991 and 1993. Only about 1800 vehicles were made. Unfortunately the system turned out to be very troublesome, unreliable and VERY expensive to repair. It soon gained a less than desirable reputation and Subaru had great difficulty selling the remaining vehicles with the last vehicle being made in Sept 1992 but not sold until 1995. The Version L is often avoided in the used market.

paddlesnz
Gunma
JAPAN

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by eddycat2000


There you have it! ALL vehicles with struts and a similar suspension in the rear to Subaru's have AWS! Dang, I missed that part.

Can you print me up a brochure of that Aredub?

Have you found *anything* in your service manuals that refer to AWS? (I've never looked cause it *don't* exist here). Thought not, unless you have an original japanese manual. Now mind you, I haven't done an internet search. Having aligned several hundred of the cars, I didn't think I'd have to, but hey, I've been wrong before. I'd sure be interested in knowing how because a rear suspension has some bushings in it...it becomes AWS! ALL rear suspensions have bushings in them, even old chevy trucks, do they have AWS too? I'd sure like to see this writers credentials...sounds like a salesman to me.

Here's a thought, Larry aye aye aye, and a couple of other people bought the car new, I think they said they still had the original stickers too. Let's ask one of them to pull it and see if it says anything about AWS.

Yep, you musta missed it. First of all, the statement says "Is a type of passive . . ." The word "type" is used here. Unlike the "true" 4ws of the Japanese models. Second of all, I don't think "old chevy trucks" had "A-Arm" type suspensions, nor used the type of bushings in the SVX, nor were they designed or tuned in the way described. Thirdly, if you'll check page #49, of the Road and Track Guide (Authorized by and distributed by Subaru with a New SVX), though they don't call it 4ws by name, you'll find an almost identical description of design stated by our "salesman", in the second column, beginning with the last two words of the third line. Now, it's off to thumb through the service manuals.

[Seraph]

Guys, Eddie is right.
There is no AWS SVXes in the US that SOA imported. Period. Unless someone else personally imported one on their own, AWS SVX is gonna be hard to find.

When you turn on the ignition, along with all the check lights, AWS light will show up. It's below the 4WD light if i recall.

If anyone's AWS light up, hold that car there. Trust me you do not want it. I will come and exchange yours for my red SVX.

Lwin

[Ron Mummert]

I believe the way to tell if we have 4WS is to look for an auxilary steering wheel for the rear seat passenger. Gives new meaning to the term "back-seat driver". Tsu.

[Aredubjay]

<<Guys, Eddie is right.
There is no AWS SVXes in the US that SOA imported. Period.>>

Eddy is right in that there were not "true" 4WS imported to the US, but, I'm sorry, as much as I respect eddy and his knowledge of the car, it still has that little "extra" in the rear suspension that acts as a "minute" 4WS. No, it is not highly pronounced such as the motor driven system that the Japanese were given, and no, it is not called, by name, 4WS on the US models. Here's the way the service manual explains it:

"The respective component parts of this suspension are optimally designed to act in response to vertical, lateral and longitudinal loads transmitted from the tires. Thus, riding comfort and steering stability are substantially enhanced.
* Longitudinal loads act on the trailing link
* Vertical loads act on the coil spring, rear strut and rear rubber mount (which is located on the strut).
* Lateral loads act on the two lateral links.
* The lower end of the stabilizer is installed on the housing via a stabilizer link which uses a ball joint.
* The rear subframe supports the trailing link, lateral link and rear differential. It is connected to the car body via bushing (four places) to effectively dampen vibration and noise transmitted from the drive line system and road surfaces."

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but, i don't know of any "old Chevy truck" that was set up like that, nor to respond to Longitudinal, Vertical and Lateral loads (emphasis on Lateral).

Again, it may not be called "passive 4WS" but, the suspension is designed to, well, let me quote from the R&T Guide:

"Lateral forces which arise in cornering are used to purposely distort the bushings of the rear suspension's twin parallel arms, causing the outer wheel to toe-in slightly and the inside wheel to toe-out slightly, again, to keep the car's movements predictable."

So, Ripley. Believe it, or not.

[eddycat2000]

Originally posted by Aredubjay

"The respective component parts of this suspension are optimally designed to act in response to vertical, lateral and longitudinal loads transmitted from the tires. Thus, riding comfort and steering stability are substantially enhanced.
* Longitudinal loads act on the trailing link
* Vertical loads act on the coil spring, rear strut and rear rubber mount (which is located on the strut).
* Lateral loads act on the two lateral links.
* The lower end of the stabilizer is installed on the housing via a stabilizer link which uses a ball joint.
* The rear subframe supports the trailing link, lateral link and rear differential. It is connected to the car body via bushing (four places) to effectively dampen vibration and noise transmitted from the drive line system and road surfaces."

Again, it may not be called "passive 4WS" but, the suspension is designed to, well, let me quote from the R&T Guide:

"Lateral forces which arise in cornering are used to purposely distort the bushings of the rear suspension's twin parallel arms, causing the outer wheel to toe-in slightly and the inside wheel to toe-out slightly, again, to keep the car's movements predictable."

So, Ripley. Believe it, or not.

Aredub, you can quote R&T all you want...you gave a perfect spot on description of the rear suspension. But look again...any reference to *steering*? (Other than adding stability). The fact that the suspension acts like it does when under certain conditions does not constitute *steering*. You can believe it if you like, it doesn't have AWS passive or otherwise.

Now don't take this the wrong way Aredub...this is starting to sound eerily similar to the brochure toting kid episode over yonder!

I think maybe you need new bearings, as they wear out they flex, hence the steering when you go around a curve. Maybe you should check out your car's rear end too.
Mike

[Aredubjay]

Well, like I said, believe it or not. If the lateral links cause the outer wheel to toe-in "slightly" and the inner wheel to toe-out "slightly," that would constitute a "slight" following of the path of the front wheels, in essence, "steering" the rear wheels more toward the path of the front wheels. You WOULD have to admit that that would "enhance steering stability."

No, eddy, I don't expect you to admit it once you've come out against it. I could drive over you, cut the wheels hard and you'd see the rear wheels follow the fronts (ever so slightly, mind you), and you'd not admit it. I know that's a lost cause. But, I've laid out the evidence. People can judge for themselves. Makes no difference to me whether it does or doesn't have it.

As for the "brochure totin'" kid -- don't even begin to compare me.

And, Mike, my bearings and rear end are fine.

[eddycat2000]

Originally posted by Aredubjay

No, eddy, I don't expect you to admit it once you've come out against it. I could drive over you, cut the wheels hard and you'd see the rear wheels follow the fronts (ever so slightly, mind you), and you'd not admit it. I know that's a lost cause. But, I've laid out the evidence. People can judge for themselves. Makes no difference to me whether it does or doesn't have it.

*steer*..."1. Orig., to direct the course of (a vessel) by means of a rudder; hence, to direct the course of by mechanical means; as to *steer* an automobile. 2. Hence, to guide; control; direct.

This comes from my handy dandy dictionary which is at my side always.

I just cut and pasted this from the other site...(I'm lazy). Even if the friggin' rear wheels followed the front ones at a 90 degree angle, that ain't *steering*! ..."to guide; control; direct."...

I guess I'm beating a dead horse here. I'll never convince you that I'm right and you aren't going to admit you're wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
.

And, Mike, my bearings and rear end are fine.

I don't like these references to anatomy on a family channel!!

Don't have an ax to grind here either for brochure-totin' moderaters or dumba$$ unrecalcitrant mechanics, but check this link out:

http://www.ukcar.com/features/tech/s...n/weissach.htm

It is likely that honorable Fuji chassis ninja wizards did dial in some lateral load compliance as an aid to stability, like the Porche Weissach set-up. Some call it passive steering. Me, I would like to know how many degrees or minutes of toe-in are factored in under load. If it was more than about 2 degrees, I'd call it steering, but I'm funny like that.

Can we call the Subie system a Wiseaxle??

Joe
{Can you do a Smilie for nudge,nudge?}

[Jamsvx]

Although I do not profess to know the exact nature of the non 4WS rear suspension set up (as compared to say Eddy or Ardub), it would seem that it is indeed passive rear steering from the description - same as on certain Peugots and also even the 8 series BMW coupe.

Without getting into a definition debate, it is my understanding that if there is a deliberate design of the rear suspension/rims etc etc so as to induce a simultaneous change of the rear wheels in aspect and direction of travel when the vehicle is turning X degrees, and such change of aspect differs from that which occurs when the vehicle is travelling in a straight line ('normal') , and such aspect change will revert to 'normal' upon completion of the turn, then to me that is a 'steering' effect . Passive - no steering rack, active - steering rack.


My fuel for the fire!!!


Jamsvx

PS: thanks for the kind comments on my web page - I will eventually clear up that horrible intro page!

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by Jamsvx
Although I do not profess to know the exact nature of the non 4WS rear suspension set up (as compared to say Eddy or Ardub), it would seem that it is indeed passive rear steering from the description - same as on certain Peugots and also even the 8 series BMW coupe.

Without getting into a definition debate, it is my understanding that if there is a deliberate design of the rear suspension/rims etc etc so as to induce a simultaneous change of the rear wheels in aspect and direction of travel when the vehicle is turning X degrees, and such change of aspect differs from that which occurs when the vehicle is travelling in a straight line ('normal') , and such aspect change will revert to 'normal' upon completion of the turn, then to me that is a 'steering' effect . Passive - no steering rack, active - steering rack.


My fuel for the fire!!!




Jamsvx

PS: thanks for the kind comments on my web page - I will eventually clear up that horrible intro page!

No idea what you mean by this, but I agree with you anyway.

To me, the cleverest chassis is that of the Nissan Skyline, which emulates the most entertaining and hairy of RWD set-ups, yet reverts to the safety and neutrality of FWD depending on inputs.

I think the SVX does the same in reverse, that is, under normal driving, it is primarily working in FWD. Push it hard, it will slide the back, and at the same time, feed more power to the rear axle to evenly distribute the power. Principal traits, stability and neutrality.

When are you coming home?? If this summer, let's meet up.


BTW I agree with Eddycat here. Unless a rear axle has active assistance I don't consider it FWS.

Joe

[Aredubjay]

<<We'll just have to agree to disagree. >>

Agreed.

[Jamsvx]

I plan to return to the homeland for a holiday at Christmas so should be able to see the SVX awd tackle Eire's lovely winter weather!!!

As for what I meant in my little rant, it was that if the rear wheels were designed to turn, (be it actively though a motor/pump etc or passivley, through inbuilt tolerances in the bushings etc etc), then its steering of a sort: in this case, passive.

Thanks for the blind faith and support though

Incidentally, would anyone who has a 4ws be willing to shoot some footage/take some photos??

Jamsvx

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
<<We'll just have to agree to disagree. >>

Agreed.

Nice to see these boys kiss and make up.

BTW James, it wasn't total blind faith, I know where you are coming from, just did'nt know if you were being pushed or pulled!

If you're home at Christmas, we should have a pint. You might slip in a gearbox in your luggage.

Joking, of course. I intend to have at least two gears working by then.

Here's an open ended question; when does active stability geometry become passive steering? Please email all answers on the back of a $20 bill to the above address.

Joe

BTW, my car sailed through the government car test. Left headlight slightly high. Tester advised me to check the gearbox oil, said the car was slow to pick up on the road test. I thanked him and roared out of the centre at 5 mph.