Tuning the EG33 While Keeping it N/A- Part II

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by deruvian

You're in the wrong if you think any serious tuner would just "pop in" some larger injectors and be done with it. This is why I told Danny to get a piggyback fuel controller, i.e. Apexi SAFC.

you will have rediculous timing issues if you opt for this route. SAFC's work good on cars that do not run rediculous amounts of timing. You could be left running 30+ degrees too much timing in certain cases as has been explained by myself and perfectly clarified by mike in my turbo thread

[TomsSVX]

not only that... A piggy back is not a final solution anyway as they will need to be reprogrammed around every 6 months due the ECU's capability to "learn".

I was referring to using the g-tech to get a consistent rating on 0-60 times. It can also be used to calibrate some other things. That along with a wideband 02 sensor and a couple egt's and an intake temp sensor I can do a decent job of tuning. I also plan on doing a little more homework on the Emanage. If I end up needing bigger injectors I am gonna have to find some way to play with the system. If I am still having issues with the system on a timing related basis I will go with the J&S Safegaurd system that I have done a good amount of research on.

Tom

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

not only that... A piggy back is not a final solution anyway as they will need to be reprogrammed around every 6 months due the ECU's capability to "learn".

I was referring to using the g-tech to get a consistent rating on 0-60 times. It can also be used to calibrate some other things. That along with a wideband 02 sensor and a couple egt's and an intake temp sensor I can do a decent job of tuning. I also plan on doing a little more homework on the Emanage. If I end up needing bigger injectors I am gonna have to find some way to play with the system. If I am still having issues with the system on a timing related basis I will go with the J&S Safegaurd system that I have done a good amount of research on.

Tom

But the thing is all SVX's from the middle east do not have O2 sensors, Tom. I need a device which can control the Fuel/air mixture.

[mbtoloczko]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

But the thing is all SVX's from the middle east do not have O2 sensors, Tom. I need a device which can control the Fuel/air mixture.

*Every* SVX has O2 sensors. Maybe your car doesn't have catalytic converters?

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

you will have rediculous timing issues if you opt for this route. SAFC's work good on cars that do not run rediculous amounts of timing. You could be left running 30+ degrees too much timing in certain cases as has been explained by myself and perfectly clarified by mike in my turbo thread

Point taken.

However, this is precisely why I've suggested to go absolutely no larger than the 370cc injectors, get adjustable cam gears, upgrade the MAF sensor, and take the car to a professional dyno tuner.

Simply trying to tune the car yourself, piggyback or standalone, is a stupid idea. And yes, this does encompass the GTech idea.

Consistent 0-60 times? C'mon. Firstly, it's a GTech... Not the most accurate thing in the world. Also, if you install a 5MT or 6MT this will be very hard. If you do your runs repeatedly, one after the other, your engine, and turbo(s) if applicable, will become affected by "heatsoak." Waiting for the car to cool after a couple runs takes too much time, and atmospheric conditions may change during this time.

Honestly, take the car to a pro. A precise dynograph and AFR graph, along with a pro to crunch the numbers, will do you a lot of good and save you a huge hassle.

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

I was referring to using the g-tech to get a consistent rating on 0-60 times. It can also be used to calibrate some other things. That along with a wideband 02 sensor and a couple egt's and an intake temp sensor I can do a decent job of tuning.

With a boosted boxer engine at 10:1 compression ratio, "decent" is not good enough.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by mbtoloczko

*Every* SVX has O2 sensors. Maybe your car doesn't have catalytic converters?

Nope, never did. I even asked the dealership about it, maybe they were taken off from my car. They said Middle East SVX's don't have neither catalytic converters nor O2 sensors. The first twin exhausts that were the nearer to the headers were fake . Hard to believe, but this is the truth.

[SilverSpear]

The Pro guy with a dyno is ready. All that i need is a device that can give me the best mixture for my setup and of course being affordable.
Some of the guys are saying no standalone, others are saying get one. Garrett is telling me the SAFC is good enough for my application along with the Z32 MAF alone. I am really getting lost here

Can the SAFC for example replace LAN's 2V4 (or 2V5)???

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Nope, never did. I even asked the dealership about it, maybe they were taken off from my car. They said Middle East SVX's don't have neither catalytic converters nor O2 sensors. The first twin exhausts that were the nearer to the headers were fake . Hard to believe, but this is the truth.

Yes I agree. The Australain workshop manual shows three different models.
1. "Catalyst model" with three catalitic converters, egr, O2 sensors.
2. "Australian model" two front catalitic converters, a "honey comb" thing instead of the third cat. egr, O2 sensors.
3. "Non catalyst model" three "honey comb" things, no egr, no o2 sensors.

Looks like Danny has one of the Non catalitic models.

Harvey.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Yes I agree. The Australain workshop manual shows three different models.
1. "Catalyst model" with three catalitic converters, egr, O2 sensors.
2. "Australian model" two front catalitic converters, a "honey comb" thing instead of the third cat. egr, O2 sensors.
3. "Non catalyst model" three "honey comb" things, no egr, no o2 sensors.

Looks like Danny has one of the Non catalitic models.

Harvey.

Correct. So harvey how the system works in my car? any Info? how does the MAF calibrates the mixture?

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Correct. So harvey how the system works in my car? any Info? how does the MAF calibrates the mixture?

The MAF meter measures the air intake, then looks up the fuel tables, to find the injection time. It runs in openloop all the time, there is no closed loop, as there is no o2 sensors.
I would suspect that the air/fuel ratio would stay closer to a richer mixture, as emissions are a secondary consideration.

Harvey.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by oab_au

The MAF meter measures the air intake, then looks up the fuel tables, to find the injection time. It runs in openloop all the time, there is no closed loop, as there is no o2 sensors.
I would suspect that the air/fuel ratio would stay closer to a richer mixture, as emissions are a secondary consideration.

Harvey.

So openloop= more fuel consumption= SilverSpear.
Harvey could it be that I have a differnet MAF than other SVX's capable of measuring fuel in a different way?
PM'ed ya

[mbtoloczko]

Originally Posted by oab_au

...
Looks like Danny has one of the Non catalitic models.

Harvey.

ok. Guess I learn something new everyday... Strange that Subaru would even make that.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by mbtoloczko

ok. Guess I learn something new everyday... Strange that Subaru would even make that.

Well i think you have to remember that Subaru built this car as a "show piece" to prove to the world that they could build more that the Justy/Bronko, types that they were building. To this end, they taylored it to suit the area that it was sent to. I belive they wrote the ECU maps to suit the area, depending on the emission controls of the Country, to maximise the preformance, and enhance the name.

I would guess that Danny's model would be the fastest model that they made.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

I would say that there are 3 stages to suit Danny's objective. They depend on
A how much power you want.
B. How much work you want to do.
C. How much money you want to spend.

Stage 1. would be increasing the lift on the inlet cam, keeping the duration as close to the 240*. This can be done, for a small cost, considering the amount of "Bang for your Bucks" it will deliver. It can be done without pulling the heads, and won't need any other support work.
This stage will suit autos or 5 speeds with the high diff gearing, that are not going to want higher rpms

Stage 2. Would use a longer 250* duration on both inlet and exhaust cams, with 8mm lift on both, and lobe centers set to suit the gearbox used, standard for an auto, 119* for the manual. Using this stage will reduce the low rpm torque that the IRIS gives To use this setup, The heads have to come off, depending on the rpm you are going to go to, a redline of 7000 would need a 10% increase in valve spring rate. A redline of 7500+ will need the hydraulic lifters replaced with solid lifters with shims fitted to set the valve clearance. It will also need different exhaust headers, that have longer branches, to prevent cylinder interference. The branch lengths can be worked out to suit the distance that the gas pressure takes to get to the next cylinder, at 300ft/sec, in the 10* that they are both open. . They need to be kept as short as possible, to retain the effectiveness of the negative sound wave. Too much volume will reduce it.

This stage would suit 5/6 speed manual with a 4.11 diff. It could still be used in an auto, but due to the reduced low speed torque, a lower diff is needed to fill the low end. The box will still change at 6500, but it will have power right up to the change.

Stage 3. The cam timing is increased to 260* with 9mm inlet, 8mm exhaust lift, 119* inlet 107*exhaust lobe centers. This is the maximum valve timing that you can run. It will allow the torque peak to climb to around 7000/7500, max HP at about 8000. The springs and solid lifters are needed. This is the big money one, depending on how much you want to invest. The pistons can be used or modified for 11:1 compression, or new pistons made, the main point is to keep them as light as they are now. The rods can be used as long as the bigend bolts are replaced with stronger units. Mr. Moneybags, might want to fit Corello rods, if it is going to spend a lot of time in the higher rpms. It would need longer branches to the headers, or three tuned length pipes into a 3 in resonator. The tuned length of both the inlet and exhaust needs to be shortened to suit the higher torque peak. For this engine to operate, it is going to rely on the resonate action of both tracts, so the exhaust is paramount.
The rest is up to the builder. The heads don't need any work, other than matching all the manifold steps, the valves are big enough for the cylinder size and rpms. The oil and cooling systems are OK, and the ignition system will handle it OK.

This stage is not for autos, it needs a 6 speed manual with 4.44 diff, as there is going to be very little below 4000 rpms, the usable rpm range will be between 4000 to 8000, with most between 6000 to 8000. Out put would be around 235 kW 300hp. It will still be flexible enough to drive on the street, but you will have to work the shifter to get the best. There are a lot of incidentals that have to be done also like fitting Michael's chip, and setting the air/fuel ratio,to suit the torque curve.

The rest is up to the builder, this is just a guide to what is needed to achieve the different results. None of this has been tested on the Eg33, but is an educated guess using experience gained working other 4 valve engines of this design, with this level of power output, so please treat it as such.

Harvey.

[NikFu S.]

That pretty much kills any desire for me to keep this engine n/a. :/