Tuning the EG33 While Keeping it N/A- Part II

[SilverSpear]

(I reserve its tuning PART I for Chike )

Ok guys, here it goes:

You all know now that sometimes I overdose myself into upgrading our SVX, even in a way turning out to be imaginary and not applicable… such as the copper intake . Well at least I didn’t loose momentum in this issue and I will keep trying and trying until I reach my objective. I need to tune our EG33 to the maximum possible without any booster. I know Chike is attempting a 270Hp “secret” project with an N/A EG33 without messing with the internals and I am very intrigued to find out how is he gonna do it. I also contacted Harvey (oab_au) and he advised me to wait until Chike’s project is done. But though, I thought about the whole issue and decided to start this thread and keep it in parallel with Chike’s project until it is revealed. It’s good to have two tuning setups for our EG33 while it is kept N/A, right?

Ok, what I have in mind is this: I am willing to rebuild my engine according to specific internals configurations, and get all the internals either new from the dealership or from another source. Stuff like regrinds on cams, forged pistons, steel billet rods from Crower, rings pins and locks from Deves or Crower, adjustable cam gears from Paeco… etc.

What I know so far is that the whole issue is mainly related to the cams setup and for that I have emailed many companies in the business of tuning and have advised me different configurations:

Some of U remember deruvian’s thread about the Bumpstick discussion:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...ight=bumpstick

Garrett mentioned that the SVX’s stock cams configuration is the following:

Intake: Opens 2* B-TDC, closes 54* A-BDC, centered @ 116* A-TDC, 236* duration and 7.00mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 55* B-BDC, closes 9* A-TDC, centered @ 67* A-BDC, 244* duration and 8.00mm lift.

He also stated that for an aggressive turbo application the following configuration must be achieved:

Intake: Opens 8* B-TDC, closes 60* A-BDC, centered @ 116* A-TDC, 248* duration and 8.00mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 62* B-BDC, closes 18* A-TDC, centered @ 68* A-BDC, 260* duration and 8.6mm lift.

And for a N/A application:

Intake: Opens 2* B-TDC, closes 58* A-BDC, centered @ 118* A-TDC, 240* duration; 8.0mm lift.
Exhaust: Opens 59* B-BDC, closes 9* A-TDC, centered @ 65* A-BDC, 248* duration; 8.6mm lift.

As for Chris of EngineLogics he gave me the following setup:

Intake: Opens 4* B-TDC, close 43* A-BDC, centered @ 110* A-TDC, 225 - 228* duration and 9.6mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 45* B-BDC, close 9* A-TDC, centered @ 108* A-TDC, 235* duration and 8 – 9mm lift
He also suggested a proper port job on the cylinder heads as well as the installation of 1.0 mm oversize valves.

As for Scott from DeltaCams suggested only a modification of the intake cams with 193* duration ???? (not logical for a tuneup…) but I found out later with the help of my good friend Garrett (Deruvian) that it is least costly and better only to do the intake cams…


Above the cams’ grinding, a nice exhaust setup and intake system will do the job. I also plan to install a light flywheels, Z32 MAF and the SAFC fuel computer unit if it is compatible with OBD-I ECU …

I am not a guy who likes to be the First in accomplishing something, this is why I posted this thread publicly with no intention to keep it for myself knowing that another member may take the result and do it himself before I do. I just wanted to do a brainstorming thread where each member can contribute a little bit from his info and contacts and give his opinion of what he thinks/can be added or done otherwise to tune the SVX to its max.

I have PM’ed many members (especially Garrett) in this forum about many info I posted here, it was just for me not to post anything stupid for I learned and still learning great deal about mechanics but still missing a lot others.

OPINIONS??? ADDs-Ups ??

[Chiketkd]

Danny,

Look for a full write-up on my n/a 270hp project over the Thanksgiving Holiday (when I'll have some free time). However, understand I won't be hitting 270+hp by then as the ECUTune Stage 2v4 won't be released for the OBDII cars yet.

-Chike

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

Danny,

Look for a full write-up on my n/a 270hp project over the Thanksgiving Holiday (when I'll have some free time). However, understand I won't be hitting 270+hp by then as the ECUTune Stage 2v4 won't be released for the OBDII cars yet.

-Chike

Looking forward to it , but still a figure near 270hp is still an achievement by itself.

[TomsSVX]

Danny, do you understand all of what you wrote? Until you understand why it would be good to retard the angle and why there should be a little more duration and about 1mm extra lift, I do not think you should go for this project. If you don't know what you are installing, how do you plan on tunning it??

Tom

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Danny, do you understand all of what you wrote? Until you understand why it would be good to retard the angle and why there should be a little more duration and about 1mm extra lift, I do not think you should go for this project. If you don't know what you are installing, how do you plan on tunning it??

Tom

Come on Tom, give me a break!!! At first i admit I was ignorant about engine configuration and its cams duration but i have been reading many articles about it especially HowStuffWorks... And believe me i am generally considered as a clever guy (Current MBA GPA= 3.62). I grasp things easily and it was just a matter of time until i get the hang of it.

I had just a problem with parts denomination and these configurations. The configurations I learned, and still to be some parts den.

Adding to that, I triggered this thread not just for myself, but rather wanted to be a group discussion for everyone's benefit. If all agree on something, i would do it, otherwise I simply won't.

I admit i don't have Harvey's or svxfiles' knowledge, but i am learning fast... so fast that i will beat my SVX even after tuning it

Peace TOM (mmm, damn about time, hein?)

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

but still a figure near 270hp is still an achievement by itself.

True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

[cdigerlando]

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

Cams are definitely uncharted territory, but I think necessary to make an N/A application really effective. If you doing the rods and strengthening the valvetrain, you can very easily acheive a higher rev limit (more HP). I think that should definitly be a goal of your project. I also think that you will be avoiding a lot of the cooling issues that I am going to have with a turbo application by sticking with N/A. That is going to be uncharted territory for me.

I would definitly recommend that you do some sort of engine mangement as a baseline to any work that you are going to start. Perhaps a used Tec II. I can help you with configuring that if you are really interested in that route. I would also recommend an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with some custom chip tuning, if you can get that done on a dyno somewhere. Don't just do like a lot of folks seem to do with this car, which is to arbitrarily throw more fuel in without being able to adjust the timing.

In fact, I think there may be a lot to gain just by doing a cold air intake, exhaust, more fuel, and engine management. I would bet that you could reach 270 with these modifications alone.

Then head, cam, and bottom end improvements could be done to stage improvements so you can really determine the limits of the engine. My gut feeling is that the engine is so well balanced that rev limits in the low 8000 range would be possible on the stock bottom end, naturally aspirated. That is just a "feeling" though and not a fact. I have heard of tuners pumping out 400+ HP reliably on a blown stock motor (bottom end and heads) with race fuel.

I'm real excited to see how the N/A project works out. Good Luck!

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

Cams are definitely uncharted territory, but I think necessary to make an N/A application really effective. If you doing the rods and strengthening the valvetrain, you can very easily acheive a higher rev limit (more HP). I think that should definitly be a goal of your project. I also think that you will be avoiding a lot of the cooling issues that I am going to have with a turbo application by sticking with N/A. That is going to be uncharted territory for me.

I would definitly recommend that you do some sort of engine mangement as a baseline to any work that you are going to start. Perhaps a used Tec II. I can help you with configuring that if you are really interested in that route. I would also recommend an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with some custom chip tuning, if you can get that done on a dyno somewhere. Don't just do like a lot of folks seem to do with this car, which is to arbitrarily throw more fuel in without being able to adjust the timing.

In fact, I think there may be a lot to gain just by doing a cold air intake, exhaust, more fuel, and engine management. I would bet that you could reach 270 with these modifications alone.

Then head, cam, and bottom end improvements could be done to stage improvements so you can really determine the limits of the engine. My gut feeling is that the engine is so well balanced that rev limits in the low 8000 range would be possible on the stock bottom end, naturally aspirated. That is just a "feeling" though and not a fact. I have heard of tuners pumping out 400+ HP reliably on a blown stock motor (bottom end and heads) with race fuel.

I'm real excited to see how the N/A project works out. Good Luck!

As i have understook from Chike is that he will not be touching his engine's internals, but i would. The only thing is that i will be going in an uncharted territory with cams and this is scaring me. When i first saw Deruvian's thread, i was curious about it (I remember that feeling when i first saw how fiberglass was made) and I felt that more work can be done on our engine for us to enjoy better accelerations. Furthermore i can hear the EG33 whispering in my ears asking for "Viagra" .

When i saw LAN constructing his Stage III setup i was hoping he can go the same road with the N/A application. But he never did so far even though he can through dyno testing, figure out what cam specs he can use for the ultimate setup.

So I decided to ask for the help of all the guys over here to contribute to the success of this idea, because I think most of you do not mind of getting more out of the EG33.

And Lando, a maximum of 320Hp on N/A engine is deemed more reasonable to me than 400Hp. I have been searching to see how the 1997 BMW M3 engine works, what distinguishes it from our engine... the M3 engine is a 3.2L 24V and ours is 3.3L 24V... and there is a difference of 90Hp!!! so I think that we can achieve the same figure as the M3...

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

mmm, r u quoting something related to this Carrera's setup?

[mbtoloczko]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

...
... I have been searching to see how the 1997 BMW M3 engine works, what distinguishes it from our engine... the M3 engine is a 3.2L 24V and ours is 3.3L 24V... and there is a difference of 90Hp!!! so I think that we can achieve the same figure as the M3...

That motor makes peak HP at 7500 rpm. You'll have to do the same with the SVX motor if you want to see 300+ NA HP. The cams are the key, but you'll need to make sure that the rest of the motor breathes well enough so that you can take advantage of the cams.

[GreenMarine]

Originally Posted by Chiketkd

True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

Definitly my goal too!!! Except I'd like a more leniear power curve... I rode in a 2001 Porsche 911 Carrera and let me tell you.... It was the sweetest NA engine that I have EVER ridden in!!!!!!!! Absolutly AMAZING!!! It would pull and pull and pull!!!! All the way to redline..... And not only just pull, but it would pull harder and harder as you got closer to redline!!! Damn, I can't say enough about what it felt like... I just want that same sensation in the SVX.... Now mine pulls Great to about 5,500... Then the power kinda hits a wall or something... :-/.... I want it to keep going all the way to the 6,500 redline!! With the help of Dale at Boxer4Racing.com We will be reaching about 270 and hopfully higher within a few years :-)....

[oab_au]

First the hp figure, is not the 'be all and end all' of performance. The things that give the performance, are a useable torque spread, and a gearing that enables its use. Its the push on the piston that gives motive force. Horse power is just a measure of how many times in a minuit, the piston can push the crank around. Ft/lbs torque X rpm = hp.

For example, I can produce an engine that has high hp figures at high rpms. But it woun't be useable if it is teamed with an auto with a high 3.5 gearing that wants to run top gear at 1700/2000 rpms. There woun't be enought torque to pull that high gearing, it will be a dog at low speeds. Sure it will fly over 3500/4000 rpms, but the high geared auto woun't keep the engine running in that rev range.

If a 5/6 speed is used, then the box can be used to keep the engine reving in the upper rev range. This gearing will allow the engine builder to raise the max rpms that engine will use. This can also be true for an auto, if it has a lower final drive ratio of 4.11/4.44, as this will allow the engine rpms to rise faster, to get to the higher rpms.

There are two ways to obtain the hp. 1. We either increase the torque at the same rpm, by increasing the breathing at whose rpms. 2. Or we raise the rpms that the same torque is produced at, by increasing the cam duration to allow it to produce this same torque at a much higher rpm. Both ways will produce the same hp figure.

If you are going to use the auto on the 3.55 gearing, then you need to increase the torque across the same rev range. As you will allways need the low rpm range that the gearing demands. To do this, we need to spread the torque peak wider. The torque peak is at about 4800, the torque drops off after this rpm. If the torque is spread, so that it continues, further up the rpm range, before it drops off, the hp figure will increase, from the 5600 peak to a ligher level. So that the end effect will be that the gear box will still change at the same 6500, but instead of the urge dropping off in the last 1000 rpms, it will continue the urge till the 6500 change point.

This type of engine mods would be more valve lift, and higher compression ratio. Keeping the cam duration low to keep the low speed torque. The higher lift will not only increase the breathing at max lift, it also increases the breathing at any point of the valve opening. This allows the maximun inlet air speed, to match a wider piston speed, to make the torque curve wider.

OK you have a 5/6 speed manual on low gearing, and just don't care about the low engine speed torque. The type of engine that you need is one that moves the whole torque curve up the rev range. This will center the breathing around a higher rpm, the torque at low rpms will evaporate to appear higher up. To do this you need to extend the cam duration to around 256/260* with a higher lift. To enable this to work, the exhaust headers will have to have longer branches to prevent one cylinder from interfering with another, three tuned length pipes into a chamber on each side(like Svxfiles) would be the best. The function that makes the engine breath well at high speeds, is the inlet/exhaust resonate length, these are set to match the peak torque rpms, so they will have to be altered to match the higher resonate speed. The inlet could be shortened by opening the track up earlier where it enters the collector chamber, by cutting and welding.

Other things would need to change. The hydraulic valve lifters and valve springs will have to go, to be replaced with shimed lifters and stronger springs. Maybe the WRX lifters would work? Depending to what rpms you are going to, the pistons and rods may need changing to prevent a monumental dismantling of the block.

Not wanting to turn anybody off, but this is the way it is. You need to know where you are going, and what the consquences are, before you do it. I have developed bike engines that gave great hp, but were unrideable because of a narrow torque curve,and others that produced not much more hp, but with a wider torque curve, produced lower lap times, and were very easy to ride.

Harvey.

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

(I reserve its tuning PART I for Chike )

Ok guys, here it goes:

*snip* I know Chike is attempting a 270Hp “secret” project with an N/A EG33 without messing with the internals and I am very intrigued to find out how is he gonna do it. I also contacted Harvey (oab_au) and he advised me to wait until Chike’s project is done. But though, I thought about the whole issue and decided to start this thread and keep it in parallel with Chike’s project until it is revealed. It’s good to have two tuning setups for our EG33 while it is kept N/A, right?

*snip*:

Okay, Chike, fess up! We're not willing to wait until Thanksgiving!
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

no way, not until you fess up first!!

Tom

[SilverSpear]

I was thinking, how much the valves can be lifted without interfierence with the pistons? anybody measured it before?

[cdigerlando]

You make a good comparison with the M3 engine. Very comparible. The 97 engine, at least the american version, was only a bit more than ours. I believe about 243 HP. The difference between the 2001 (330 HP) engine and ours is that the rev limit is extremely high. The torque is close to the old engine. Similar gains as the S2000 made with their 2 liter N/A little beast, making lots of HP and very little torque.

The M3 is an all round well engineered car. A lot of the performance numbers come from properly matching the engine to the transmission as well. The 1997 M3 was faster than the SVX due mostly to its weight and 2WD manual transmission. Then again the WRX with its AWD manual is as fast as the 97. The 2001 up are beasts! You will need an STi to compete.

As for discussions related to cam changes and what performance enhancements you would recieve, I am not qualified to answer that, nor am I even able to give you a good starting point. It sounds like you have done your research. If you have another vehicle to drive, and you can afford to play with this car, then I think it would be fun to do cams. I guess the big question for you is "do you have the resources to do these experiments". The tough thing about the SVX is that there are so many other cars that are so much easier to tune, because there is a lot more interest, present company exluded. It's cost effective for tuners to experiment with M3s and WRXs and not SVXs. Only when they want like 1000 HP do they look at our platform. The road, even for race companies, has sounded long and fraut with failure. So be prepared. I would definitly contact rebello racing and see if you can get a rebuild from them. See what they propose for changes. I could not get them to tell me what they did to the engines to keep them from blowing up under high power. Perhaps you can. At least they have experience working with these engines. You could even specify what types of pistions and rods you want. I know I am.

Good Luck