Pray for All - Page 6

thumper_svx · #76 09-12-2001, 09:06 AM

I've been quiet for weeks here... reasons I'll get into at a later date, but I felt that I have to say something after an incredible couple of days.

First, the occurrences yesterday were truly tragic, unbelievable and just boggle the mind! I felt sick to my stomach as I watched the drama unfold on a TV screen at a local coffeeshop... this was after I had heard about it from a guy calling in who had heard it on the radio and discovered that all the news-sites on the Internet were basically inaccessible.

Watching first the footage I had missed seeing live (the second plane hitting the tower), then watching live as first one then the other tower crumbled to dust was something I will never forget. Neither will I forget what I found to be an incredible and powerful image; two firefighters almost collapsing by the side of the road after running from the tower, then dropping their equipment and simply embracing one another in the middle of the street. A simple image, but one that truly sums up the feelings of those present.

However, though yesterday was a truly tragic circumstance, I am not here to reiterate all that has already been written... I am here to beg all who read this forum for temperence and logic in dealing with this situation. We still don't know who is responsible... and though we have plenty of evidence even now, we still have no absolute determination of fault.

I ask this simply because I myself am currently considering going home and staying there for a few weeks. Why? Intolerance, racism and out-and-out warmongering ideas among those whom I usually refer to as "co-workers". This morning in a fit of anger one of the guys at the office began to rant. The following about covers it;

"We need blood," he yelled, "we should declare war on the middle east and nuke the f***ers."
"Nuke who?" I inquired calmly, "Afghanistan? Israel? Who are you declaring war on if you have no clear-cut enemy?"
"All of them, they're a bunch of ignorant towel-heads anyway!" (his words, not mine) "I think we should just round up all the people in this country on visas who aren't citizens, then just either send them back to their stinking countries or lock them up!" I looked at him, dumbfounded for a second. Rage began to rise up in my gut as I stared him in the face and said (with remarkable restraint I think given the situation);
"Does that include me? I'm not a citizen either you know." At first he stared at me, then said,
"Well, not people like you of course! You're a useful member of society." At this time I could barely contain myself as I yelled back at him;
"And what about all the Israeli and Palestinian programmers who work at Amdocs? They're not useful members of society? What about the people I interview for technical jobs who are new to this country from the middle east who know more about computers than you will ever fathom? Are they useless too? Where do you draw the line and where the hell do you get off saying that Americans are so f***ing superior when all I've heard from you all day is why we should nuke the middle-east? How are you any different from the people who started this if that's all you can do about it?"
At that point I realized it was pointless to continue this. I looked at him again and said simply, "I'm going to get coffee now. I'll be back when I'm feeling calm." and walked out to my car to drive to the same coffee-shop I was at yesterday.

Where does it end? Do you differentiate "for'ners" into good and bad? Do you simply presume that simply because someone has a different upbringing from you that they automatically want to destroy your way of life? Last night I spent two hours with a six-pack and a good Palestinian friend of mine... he has lived in this country for a year and is as appalled and devastated at this whole thing as the rest of us are. He watched his countrymen standing in the streets and celebrating, his face pallid and drawn as he said, "That's just unbelievable! I can't understand why they're celebrating this tragedy!" He looked at me and said with true sadness in his eyes, "That's a minority you're watching... most of the people I know back-home will be as shocked as we are... and they'll mourn as we do. I'm just scared now. What's going to happen now?"

Good question. What is going to happen now? Are we going to declare war on a nation because a small faction have declared war on us? Are we really that childish? That's like me wanting to kill you, your entire family and all your friends because you ran into my car in a parking lot and drove away! I don't have your license plate but I'm going to kill random people until I find somebody you care about, then that'll hurt, won't it?

Please, I beg all who read this to temper your anger with some modicum of logic! I am as angered, frustrated and shocked by this as you are... and I feel retribution is in order... but going to war on innocents makes us no better than the terrorists who stole away America's naievete yesterday. We saw yesterday that the US is NOT invincible or untouchable... but destroying all your enemies and potential enemies is no way to rebuild... and is not a way to remember those who perished.

Apologies if this has already been said... but I felt I needed an outlet for my feelings, and that you as my long-time friends would be most receptive to my "rant". Thank you for reading.

halistan · #77 09-12-2001, 09:58 AM

You really hit the nail on the head Gavin. I'm glad you were able to put into words what I am feeling too. I have tried without much success, thank you.

~Ray

Aredubjay · #78 09-12-2001, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SVXphile
<Would appreciate any and all prayers>

You got 'um Jerry.....Don

And mine.

halistan · #79 09-12-2001, 10:36 AM

Truthfully, this scares the hell out of me. Some options MUST be taken off. I know a lot of people are tossing around the word "nuke" and as far as i am concerned this shouldn't even be in the running. This form of enemy really is the only type that is immune from a nuclear attack. They sit and work among innocents which they use as armor. Using nukes on them is the equivilent of using a bazooka to remove a tumor! It will be hard but if we are going to get them it will have to be extremely surgical. We can't condemn a whole nation for the acts of a few cowards.
Don't get me wrong, providing we have positive proof that Osama ben Laden is the mastermind behind this, i am all for walking right in and pulling him out of bed and yanking his @$$ back here for trial along with all his accomplices...but laying waste to an entire section of the world makes us no better than him.

~Ray

cocacola08 · #80 09-12-2001, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thumper_svx
I've been quiet for weeks here... reasons I'll get into at a later date, but I felt that I have to say something after an incredible couple of days.....
.....Apologies if this has already been said... but I felt I needed an outlet for my feelings, and that you as my long-time friends would be most receptive to my "rant". Thank you for reading.

i'm very happy that you kept your composre. We have a Pakistani here at work who has not shown up for work today, I can only assume it would be in sheer terror for his own life. There have been people on the radio, calling about some in Manhatton trying desperately to get away from the island fearing for their life..

This is not what our country needs right now.. There is no reason to bring racial/religeos hate to table, it will only cause more problems.

thumper_svx · #81 09-12-2001, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by halistan
You really hit the nail on the head Gavin. I'm glad you were able to put into words what I am feeling too. I have tried without much success, thank you.

~Ray

Thanks, Ray... it's nice to know that I'm not alone in my feelings. Today has probably been more trying for myself and friends of mine than yesterday was... because now even though the rage is not directed at me, when people start slamming all immigrants I can't help but take it a LITTLE personally.

Just as a little follow-up, I heard from the aforementioned Palestinian friend of mine about 10 minutes ago; he's gone home for the day after being the brunt of a few verbal and even one physical attack (thankfully he wasn't injured, just shaken enough to call it quits for the day).

Is this what we're reduced to, people? I know that question isn't really aimed directly at people on this board (who I've usually found to be more intelligent and thoughtful than many), but it's a question we're all going to have to keep asking ourselves for a couple of weeks.

I agree with your other comment, Ray; some options are definitely discounted in my opinion simply because they are too awful to contemplate. Besides, we are dealing with an enemy here who is already among us... we destroy their homeland, their people here in this country turn around and attempt to destroy ours. Nuclear, biological weapons... doesn't really matter... the results are pretty much the same at the end of the day.

This whole string of events is horrible... but not near as horrible as they might become if people don't get a grip soon.

Ron Mummert · #82 09-12-2001, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thumper_svx
I've been quiet for weeks here... reasons I'll get into at a later date, but I felt that I have to say something after an incredible couple of days.

First, the occurrences yesterday were truly tragic, unbelievable and just boggle the mind! I felt sick to my stomach as I watched the drama unfold on a TV screen at a local coffeeshop... this was after I had heard about it from a guy calling in who had heard it on the radio and discovered that all the news-sites on the Internet were basically inaccessible.

Watching first the footage I had missed seeing live (the second plane hitting the tower), then watching live as first one then the other tower crumbled to dust was something I will never forget. Neither will I forget what I found to be an incredible and powerful image; two firefighters almost collapsing by the side of the road after running from the tower, then dropping their equipment and simply embracing one another in the middle of the street. A simple image, but one that truly sums up the feelings of those present.

However, though yesterday was a truly tragic circumstance, I am not here to reiterate all that has already been written... I am here to beg all who read this forum for temperence and logic in dealing with this situation. We still don't know who is responsible... and though we have plenty of evidence even now, we still have no absolute determination of fault.

I ask this simply because I myself am currently considering going home and staying there for a few weeks. Why? Intolerance, racism and out-and-out warmongering ideas among those whom I usually refer to as "co-workers". This morning in a fit of anger one of the guys at the office began to rant. The following about covers it;

"We need blood," he yelled, "we should declare war on the middle east and nuke the f***ers."
"Nuke who?" I inquired calmly, "Afghanistan? Israel? Who are you declaring war on if you have no clear-cut enemy?"
"All of them, they're a bunch of ignorant towel-heads anyway!" (his words, not mine) "I think we should just round up all the people in this country on visas who aren't citizens, then just either send them back to their stinking countries or lock them up!" I looked at him, dumbfounded for a second. Rage began to rise up in my gut as I stared him in the face and said (with remarkable restraint I think given the situation);
"Does that include me? I'm not a citizen either you know." At first he stared at me, then said,
"Well, not people like you of course! You're a useful member of society." At this time I could barely contain myself as I yelled back at him;
"And what about all the Israeli and Palestinian programmers who work at Amdocs? They're not useful members of society? What about the people I interview for technical jobs who are new to this country from the middle east who know more about computers than you will ever fathom? Are they useless too? Where do you draw the line and where the hell do you get off saying that Americans are so f***ing superior when all I've heard from you all day is why we should nuke the middle-east? How are you any different from the people who started this if that's all you can do about it?"
At that point I realized it was pointless to continue this. I looked at him again and said simply, "I'm going to get coffee now. I'll be back when I'm feeling calm." and walked out to my car to drive to the same coffee-shop I was at yesterday.

Where does it end? Do you differentiate "for'ners" into good and bad? Do you simply presume that simply because someone has a different upbringing from you that they automatically want to destroy your way of life? Last night I spent two hours with a six-pack and a good Palestinian friend of mine... he has lived in this country for a year and is as appalled and devastated at this whole thing as the rest of us are. He watched his countrymen standing in the streets and celebrating, his face pallid and drawn as he said, "That's just unbelievable! I can't understand why they're celebrating this tragedy!" He looked at me and said with true sadness in his eyes, "That's a minority you're watching... most of the people I know back-home will be as shocked as we are... and they'll mourn as we do. I'm just scared now. What's going to happen now?"

Good question. What is going to happen now? Are we going to declare war on a nation because a small faction have declared war on us? Are we really that childish? That's like me wanting to kill you, your entire family and all your friends because you ran into my car in a parking lot and drove away! I don't have your license plate but I'm going to kill random people until I find somebody you care about, then that'll hurt, won't it?

Please, I beg all who read this to temper your anger with some modicum of logic! I am as angered, frustrated and shocked by this as you are... and I feel retribution is in order... but going to war on innocents makes us no better than the terrorists who stole away America's naievete yesterday. We saw yesterday that the US is NOT invincible or untouchable... but destroying all your enemies and potential enemies is no way to rebuild... and is not a way to remember those who perished.

Apologies if this has already been said... but I felt I needed an outlet for my feelings, and that you as my long-time friends would be most receptive to my "rant". Thank you for reading.

Welcomely eloquent, Thumper, and in a logical world you would be right, of course. In a logical world we wouldn't yell, "kill the umpire"! Road rage wouldn't exist. Tyranny & repression wouldn't get a foothold, because it's "against human nature".
I too have listened to "back to the stonage" recommendations from co-workers, & although "stoneage" would be an upgrade for the Taliban, we reluctantly have to recognize that some heavy duty steam is being released by perhaps normally rational folks due to the awesomness of what we have just witnessed.

Unfortunately, whether war is declared upon a definable geographic, geo-political entity, or a loosly defined group of ideologists or "wackos", as we are currently trying to deal with, the sad fact is that the average guy in the street will ultimately bear the brunt of the ideology into which he/she has had the misfortune to be born into. I'd say a great number of German & Japanese dentists, accountants & school teachers perished in the last big one, along with their "war mongering" brethern.

The answer is that there is no answer. As long as ever expanding populations occupy the same non-expanding sphere in a small galaxy, the "problem" will be eternal. On a temporary basis we can "wipe out" certain distasteful cultures, & consider ourselves non-threatened for a while, but just as bacteria related diseases can be eradicated "for a while", their mutated cousins always return with a vengence. Unless we can devise the miracle drug to alter THE HUMAN CONDITION, I sadly say it will be business as usual 'til the Sun stops shining. Have a nice day, Ron.

svxter · #83 09-12-2001, 11:56 AM

Gavin

You, Ray and others, are 100%, absolutely on-center correct. Hate will never conquer hate, only breed more of it. Tragically, there are far too many like your co-worker, who simply want to round "them" all up and dispose of "them". I wonder if he went out and beat up the first Arabic looking person he saw, would he feel patriotic?

Now is the time for a kind of quiet anger, some real information, careful deliberation, a firm resolve, and a well thought through plan of action.

One great fear I have, is that in the name of safety, there are those who would turn our society into a police state. Then the terrorists will truly have won.

Seraph · #84 09-12-2001, 12:46 PM

Guys,

With this going on, all we can do and all we should at this moment is to just pray and wait for more (news) to come.

I do not like the media in this country (or in any country for that matter.) They are one sided all the time. War was not a word that was mentioned initially till media mentions "war", "attack", and "assault."

This kind of things happens pretty much where my dad lives on weekly basis. Yes -- this is the new form of war. But the media does not need to add fuel to the flame already there. The US government does not need to use a nuclear weapon to kill one guy. US does have a strongest military right? Or is it still the "army of one?"

If the US wants to execute Osama, they can go in, take him out and come back with minimal loss at the moment. I am not a US citizen either. This lock'em up and send them back is a totally POS attitude and something that should not be tolerated. If we have to kick out all the foreigners, no one but the native americans should be here in the US -- right?

Anyways, I guess my ranting is over for the moment.

Lwin
Again, god help us from the hands of fools, politicians and diplomats.

Ron Mummert · #85 09-12-2001, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
Guys,

With this going on, all we can do and all we should at this moment is to just pray and wait for more (news) to come.

I do not like the media in this country (or in any country for that matter.) They are one sided all the time. War was not a word that was mentioned initially till media mentions "war", "attack", and "assault."

This kind of things happens pretty much where my dad lives on weekly basis. Yes -- this is the new form of war. But the media does not need to add fuel to the flame already there. The US government does not need to use a nuclear weapon to kill one guy. US does have a strongest military right? Or is it still the "army of one?"

If the US wants to execute Osama, they can go in, take him out and come back with minimal loss at the moment. I am not a US citizen either. This lock'em up and send them back is a totally POS attitude and something that should not be tolerated. If we have to kick out all the foreigners, no one but the native americans should be here in the US -- right?

Anyways, I guess my ranting is over for the moment.

Lwin
Again, god help us from the hands of fools, politicians and diplomats.

Good idea Lwin. Please show me where Mr. Bin Laden is right now & I'll personally point our forces in the right direction. Got any good leads on Saddam today? Excuse my sarcasm. Ron.

svxistentialist · #86 09-12-2001, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thumper_svx

Apologies if this has already been said... but I felt I needed an outlet for my feelings, and that you as my long-time friends would be most receptive to my "rant". Thank you for reading.

Very well thought out and articulated "rant" if I may say so. And thank you for saying it.

Joe

svxistentialist · #87 09-12-2001, 01:54 PM

Not everyone on this board believes in God, and not everyone believes in prayer.

But I believe in the power of prayer to improve us and to ease our inner spirit. I offer you this one, my favourite, it is a
Prayer for Courage.

Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers,

but to be fearless in facing them;

let me not beg for the stilling of my pain,

but for the heart to conquer it.

Let me not look for allies in life's battlefield,

but to my own strength.

Let me not crave in anxious fear to be saved,

but hope for the patience to win my freedom.

Grant that I may not be a coward, feeling your mercy in my success alone,

but let me find the grasp of Your hand in my failure.

We need courage to defeat these nihilistic S o B's. It can be found within.

Joe

mohrds · #88 09-12-2001, 02:07 PM

I really hope some of you did not misunderstand what I was saying. I am not a war monger, I do not feel we should wage war against Afghanistan or any other country. I do not feel we should kick all foreigners out. What I meant was we need to extinguish the CAUSE of these problems.

I listen daily to BBC news which IMHO gives the least slanted news that is available to us in the states, so I know of the daily terrorist attacks all over the world. The one theme that always rings out in most terrorist attacks is the shedding of civilian blood. When you are dealing with people who don't care about killing innocent people, you are backed into a corner.

I would like to see a peaceful resolve to this, but I have to be realistic. Unless we can get terrorists into court, we all lose. Lets pray that whoever is responsible went so far over the line, that their own people give them over for trial. If not, we are left with no other alternative than to go in and get them.

I'm not talking about bombing cities, I'm talking about a targeted effort for specific people. Unfortunately, people like this in the past have chosen to hide in schools, hospitals, and other cowardly places. In previous attempts, we have backed down and they have continued to take innocent people's lives.

And when we get this one or group, we set a policy that we will get EVERY terrorist into court so anyone who gets a bright idea of blowing up a bus in Israel knows that they WILL be found and they WILL be punished. It is time for the world to unite against a terrorist enemy, not against peace loving people of all races.

Doug

cocacola08 · #89 09-12-2001, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Mummert

Good idea Lwin. Please show me where Mr. Bin Laden is right now & I'll personally point our forces in the right direction. Got any good leads on Saddam today? Excuse my sarcasm. Ron.

All in due time, but before another situation like the one yesterday happens.

The problem is, that who says the bin Laden is the only one who is willing to back these actions. There are many who have the same beliefs that he does, and will without a doubt take over in his place if & when we take care of him. This "new" type of "war", will be around for a long time. There will be no quick & easy end to the Terrorism. Other than ending the lives of MANY MANY innocent people. Which is obviously not the correct answer.

FlagstaffSVX · #90 09-12-2001, 02:42 PM

First off, I am a man that rarely, if ever, uses profanity but every time I see the footage of the second plane crashing into World Trade Center #2 I can't help but say, "Jesus ****ing Christ..." It is a very sad world we live in where people use the lives of others as their weapons and shields. Secondly, eventhough I did not vote for Bush I rally behind him as I believe all Americans should when he says, "We shall see no difference between the terrorists and the countries that harbor them." There needs to be some military action but we must excercise restraint. Not only is this a "Day that will live in infamy." but this is a defining moment for my generation. My parents were the ones who remember the day JFK was shot, my grandparents were the ones who remembered Pearl, we (of the misplaced generation) will remember the "Attack on America" as every news channel so eloquently put it. I doubt if there will be anything we as citizens of America can do short of helping the relief effort. There will be no draft, no internment camps and no mercy. Once we are aware of who's responsible our actions will be just and swift. There will be no eye for an eye, we cannot stoop to their level. This persecution of anyone who remotely looks like they're from the Middle East must stop. I encourage every American (and everyone all over the world) to not-condone any hate actions. If you see ignorance happening, enlighten those doing it. Tell them how they are acting just as bad as the terrorists themselves. Tell them that if they are so closed minded that they cannot see that we are all Americans, they should be the ones targeted by their own hate. I am a half Japanese, half Caucasan AMERICAN and I will be damned if I will let anyone, terrorists or rednecks destroy my country.

Now that the rant is over I just want to pose some thoughts.

Would this have happened if Gore was President?
Of couse it would, the election is long over, let's support our Commander and Chief. (every other college student I've talked to at my school agrees.)

Does this remind anyone of a bad science fiction movie? Like, first thousands of civillians die, then war breaks out, then the terrorists nuke LA or something, then we nuke them and thousands of years later the humans in space can't even remember when humans could be so barbaric. (yes, I am still a kid with mindless fantasy's)

That's all for now, I must ride my bike as fast as I can to make it to my next class just 5 minutes late.
Goodnight and Godbless.