Pray for All

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by SVXphile
The shear MAGNITUDE of trying to find and dig out these slippery characters will, I think, necessitate it. Please continue to pray for the victims families and now, especially, the leadership of our nation. God knows we need guidance from above on this one....
Don

Amen to that Don.

When God offered Solomon anything he could wish for, he asked for the wisdom to rule his people wisely and with justice.

I have praised your foreigh office people in the past for their deft handling of the Chinese spy plane incident. There are some excellent people working on your behalf. On the other hand, the handling of the Israeli and Palestine issues seem to be handled with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop. One gets the impression if a Palestinian kid throws a stone, and the Israelis reply with a nuclear warhead, the Pentagon would put on a team of spin-doctors to write a statement saying they were bad boys, but they were provoked.

It is very likely the American people in general do not get exposed to information about how much hardship is being visited on the poor native populations of some middle eastern states. This is happening in the name of American sanctions and is perceived as imperialist repression by Arab states and Arab people. Eddycat mailed me to say we should have sorted out Saddumb[his spelling!] during the Gulf war. How right he is there. These crazy terrorists did not turn anti-American overnight. The way to deal with this particular bomb, is not to build a bigger one, but to defuse it.

Just because you are the strongest does not mean you can't be moderate. You guys should start to ask questions and look for more information on what is being done in your name. With freedom of speech and freedom of the press enshrined in your constitution, which is one of the wonderful things about America, it is amazing that your press and media either selectively leave out the bad news, or else feel that reporting the warts and all would be un-American. Incomplete information is misinformation, or worse, propaganda. Your journalists would want to wake up and tell it like it is. The people of the United States have a right to know what is going on, but also the duty to inform themselves about foreign policy, so they can make their views known to Washington. You are so right, Don, memories of Vietnam are painful even yet. Gives me hope that we will not be setting off along that road.

God bless America. She needs it these days more than at any other time.

Joe

[LarryIII]

Thanks Joe,

You seem to be right on the mark.
I always try to get the BBC news. I find that it is more complete & objective than the news from CNN or the networks. The problem is that American TV only has CNN and the network news.
When news is breaking quickly we only get the US media.

Larry III.

[Seraph]

Originally posted by svxistentialist


It is very likely the American people in general do not get exposed to information about how much hardship is being visited on the poor native populations of some middle eastern states. This is happening in the name of American sanctions and is perceived as imperialist repression by Arab states and Arab people. Eddycat mailed me to say we should have sorted out Saddumb[his spelling!] during the Gulf war. How right he is there. These crazy terrorists did not turn anti-American overnight. The way to deal with this particular bomb, is not to build a bigger one, but to defuse it.

Just because you are the strongest does not mean you can't be moderate. You guys should start to ask questions and look for more information on what is being done in your name. With freedom of speech and freedom of the press enshrined in your constitution, which is one of the wonderful things about America, it is amazing that your press and media either selectively leave out the bad news, or else feel that reporting the warts and all would be un-American. Incomplete information is misinformation, or worse, propaganda. Your journalists would want to wake up and tell it like it is. The people of the United States have a right to know what is going on, but also the duty to inform themselves about foreign policy, so they can make their views known to Washington. You are so right, Don, memories of Vietnam are painful even yet. Gives me hope that we will not be setting off along that road.

God bless America. She needs it these days more than at any other time.

Joe

Holy cow! -- This one is gonna be long

Joe, you hit the nail right on the spot. You spoke my thoughts just right. I am not saying I do not feel bad for what had happened to America, but there are new things I found out every time I visit my parents (in Jordan).

Do you know that since operation Desert Fox, US has been bombing so-called Iraq's anti aircraft sites on pretty much daily basis? I want to see a show of hands here. I guess this is something that MSNBC, FOX News or even CNN forgot to cover. I know BBC does not cover that either. Jordanian News cover that. Every time that F16 or 15 flies off the aircraft carrier, someone dies. I thought we want to cripple Iraq. It's like teasing them and making the people of Iraq stronger. My belief (although it is a bad way to put it), is to go in and take out all of Suddam's forces and Suddam himself with one swift blow. Come on! If you can find where Osama is, I know you can find another mad man.

Further more, this is something else I have noticed in the middle east. Since it is a lot less secure region on earth, the embassies in the middle east are much more secure and built with security in hand. You guys should see the US embassies in Egypt and Jordan. They are forts! They have multiple walls and it's pretty much a little city on it's own. I have been inside the one in the Jordan -- needless to say they are one of the most secure places one can be in during wars. To get to my point... I have seen the Americans in Middle East behave much more differently compare to the rest of the Americans around the world. They seem to have a much bigger attitude and sometimes behaves like they own the word (again, not all Americans do that). Stuff like that trigger a jealousy in humans. A lot of people do not like to see holier than thou attitude. I think people could be a lot more humble. That is the key. People do not turn anti American overnight. They turn slowly after a lot of stuff were rubbed in their faces slowly over time.

Anyway as for the Pal. and Isr. issue, that is something that makes me feel upset every time I see kids throwing rocks. Pal. will throw whatever they have close by at Israelis. They have been for a while and it will take generations to change that. We just saw peace. I can't seem to recall who said it but someone said that to change the ideology of a nation, it takes 3 generations. It will take 3 generations there in the positive side if we are to see peace. I dear to say that making peace started with my generation. By the time I have a grand son, and before I die, if things go in the right direction all the time, we WILL see peace there. As for Israelis attacking back, I don't blame them. They have been pushed, shoved and rocked at. I have seen footages of gunships flying in just to take out one person -- and they do take out that person (and his house). It's nothing more than media war there. That's it. Period.

Anyway, I am not saying Americans are hurt. Americans are hurt badly. They can not imagine that attacks would happen on the US soil (yeah how dare they -- holier than thou attitude again) but attacks have been made. I feel bad whenever someone dies because of terrorism (not just the Americans but the French, the English etc.). That is not the way and terrorism is not a fair game. Hey at least IRA calls in before the bomb is exploded (they try to play fair -- got to give them credit there).

Now that my ranting is about to finish, I would like to say what happened is not right. It should not be tolerated but media and/or politicians should report everything if they want to report or nothing at all since partial information IS really dangerous and create a whole lot of people who are stereotyped (no offence to anyone).

Have a nice day all

Lwin


God help us from hands of fools, media, war hungry generals and politicians.

ps. Are there any ribbons for world wide anti-terrorism? I should put one on.

[svxxx26]

Originally posted by Seraphim


Isn't it one of the FAA regulations that all cell phones are turned off while they are in flight since it interferes with the navigation? Makes me think... Also cell phones can light up gasoline (let alone plane fuel)... [Evil Lwin off]



Lwin

That's probably true, Lwin - but I don't think that too much attention was being given to FAA regulations at the time . . .

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by LarryIII
Thanks Joe,

You seem to be right on the mark.
I always try to get the BBC news. I find that it is more complete & objective than the news from CNN or the networks. The problem is that American TV only has CNN and the network news.
When news is breaking quickly we only get the US media.

Larry III.

Thanks Larry and Lwin,

In looking at the posts I do hope I am not being preachy or know it all, I am searching for a solution, and it seems the problem has been on simmer to slow boil for a long time without the general American public being aware of it.

I would not naturally be a paragon of common sense, after all, I may be the only person in the club who has bought an SVX with a dodgy tranny from Japan off the Internet!!

It is possible a lot of your media are controlled by Jewish interests, and as such, they may have a strong aversion to giving an objective or balanced account of what is happening in the Gulf. This may well sound paranoid or xenophobic of me to suggest so, but offer me a better reason why the two sides are not evenly reported, or why the hardship on the Arab or Muslim side does not get much airtime.

Before I am bombarded by Jewish members taking me for a racist, I am not, I have Jewish friends, I have no ax to grind. We are victims here in Ireland of bombing and murder squads from both sides of a religious divide. The Christian in me rejects both sides of this, nobody murders or bombs in my name, I condemn it. Likewise as Lwin says, there is savagery on both sides in Israel, both sides need justice. To get justice, you need to know the truth, to get truth, you need to have objective reporting from both sides.

BTW, we are lucky here in Ireland to have good objective TV and newspapers. In the UK, the BBC is excellent, and the broadsheets are generally good to very good, but the tabloids are pure trash. Talk about dumbing down!!

Joe

[SVXphile]

Living in England for four years, and listening to the BBC on radio and television, allowed me for the first time to see my country through someone else's eyes. The British viewpoint was always interesting....almost like a wise father lecturing his wayward son. The British are proud deep-down of their former colony, but ready to criticize when they see us doing something that to them, seems out of line. Which many times it is! We do tend to strut around like the cock-of-the-rock, beating our breasts, telling the world of how wonderful we are. And we occasionally do go off, half-cocked, and stick our noses where they don't belong. At the same time, it is our nation that has come back to save the continent of our emigrant ancestors from tyranny twice last century. During the cold war, the might of our nuclear umbrella sheltered the nations of Europe from Communist aggression, and allowed them the freedom to criticize the hand that held that umbrella.

Sometimes we are blessed with leaders that have the right stuff at the right time. At other times our leaders seem like latecomers to a brain sale. This present situation calls for a lot of the former.
Don

[SVXphile]

If the media is controlled by Jewish interests, they must be anti-Israeli. (Congress on the other hand, is a different story) It has been my observation, that most major networks seem to mostly portray the Israeli side in the darkest light. I have seen CNN interviews with both sides that were so slanted that one of my Special Education students could spot it. The Israelis have made several major mistakes (probably among many) in the way they handle this situation. One: Their responses to bombings or rock-throwing is....and it comes across very strongly in the media....too heavy-handed. Slingshot-firing boys vs. body-armored soldiers. (P.S. This is something that WE need to be aware of, as we make plans to fight terrorism. Blow up a few innocent villages....let the cameras film mothers holding their dead children....and the United States will lose all our "Cooperation" in a heartbeat) Second: They are losing the media war. If they have strings attached to the American media, they seem to have snapped long ago. They need to hire a media consultant. Outnumbered thousands to one and they are coming out as the bad guys. Of course some of their actions ARE actions of bad guys....but then they are fighting bad guys embedded within a displaced population. Which have every reason from what they see, and what they have been told, to hate the Jews. Kind of like the Israeli distrust of them. And it goes on and on. I have some additional thoughts on this situation, but the dinner bell is ringing and my stomach must answer the call!
Don

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Seraphim


Isn't it one of the FAA regulations that all cell phones are turned off while they are in flight since it interferes with the navigation? Makes me think... Also cell phones can light up gasoline (let alone plane fuel)... [Evil Lwin off]



Lwin

If you're relatively sure you're going to die, it doesn't make much difference, does it? Much like the brave passengers who took on the terrorists over PA -- "If I'm going to die, I'm not going to let them reach their intended target."

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Aredubjay


If you're relatively sure you're going to die, it doesn't make much difference, does it? Much like the brave passengers who took on the terrorists over PA -- "If I'm going to die, I'm not going to let them reach their intended target."

Nope! If you know you are about to die -- if I know I was I'd try to bring the plane down in the corn field somewhere too.

Lwin

[SVXphile]

Those people on the Pennsylvania plane are heroes in the truest sense. Knowing that their plane was also headed for a major target, they rushed the terrorists in a bold move to take their plane back. We may never learn the details of their gallant struggle, but they died trying to defend themselves and their country.

Perhaps a better way to go, if there is such a thing, than by a missile from a F-16....whose pilot would have to relive the horror of that moment for the rest of his life.
Don

[SVXphile]

<It is very likely the American people in general do not get exposed to information about how much hardship is being visited on the poor native populations of some middle eastern states. This is happening in the name of American sanctions and is perceived as imperialist repression by Arab states and Arab people.>

I agree. This sanction thing has been a disaster from the get-go. We do get coverage of the problems faced by the civilian population. But this media thing works two ways. In those states, the government IS the media. They will be sure to tell their people that the hardships they are facing are the doing of the Great Satan America, while diverting money and resources AWAY from their people and toward rearming their depleted armed forces. Any shortcoming is not Saddam's fault....it's that evil American administration! With sanctions the way they were imposed over there, it is a no-win situation.

I'm sure that somewhere down the line, the real truth of why we left Saddam in power will come to light. Maybe it is a case of "better the devil that you know". Clip his wings but leave him in power as counter to Iran. Looking back, it sure seems like it would have been better if we had finished the job....

....then Iraq could be receiving foreign aid, the babies would be fed, the people could be buying our goods and American tourists could be visiting Babylon..... Don

[SVXphile]

< Likewise as Lwin says, there is savagery on both sides in Israel, both sides need justice. To get justice, you need to know the truth, to get truth, you need to have objective reporting from both sides.>

Here in lies the rub. Both sides claim the truth. Both sides claim the same territory. Both sides claim to be the right. Both sides cry out for justice...THEIR justice.

There has never been, nor will there ever be, a problems so deep-rooted and vexing as the Israeli-Palestinian problem. It is no wonder that most of the New Testament Book of Revelations goes on and on about it. It is a battleground between every opposing force in the universe....step across a line, look back, and the scene looks completely different. And for the nations of the world, the region is like the tarbaby in "Song of the South".....

....I am trying to remember the author of a book I read once..."The History of the Jews"...Chaim somebody-or-other....I have still have it in a box somewhere. I would greatly recommend it to anyone interested in mideast politics and culture. I would love to discuss it sometime with someone who has also read it.
Don

[Seraph]

Originally posted by SVXphile

....I am trying to remember the author of a book I read once..."The History of the Jews"...Chaim somebody-or-other....I have still have it in a box somewhere. I would greatly recommend it to anyone interested in mideast politics and culture. I would love to discuss it sometime with someone who has also read it.
Don

Don, I'll have to pick it up.

Thanks for the reading material

Lwin

[svxistentialist]

The name Chaim Herzog comes to mind Don, but I have not read or heard of the book. Will find it.

The situation interests me because of the obvious parallel with Northern Ireland. Both are [wrongly, in my opinion] stated to be religious conflicts. In fact, they are both territorial squabbles, with two distinct tribes claiming ownership of portions of land and resource.

The four religious sides if I may stretch a point, are well capable of co-existing peacefully, and do on other parts of the planet. Give them both a "God-given" right to claim particular territory, and all Hell breaks loose, pun intended.

Good to know your reporters are showing hardship on the Arab side, with a bit more of it, we could all inform ourselves more on the Arab Muslim culture, possibly understand enough to reach towards moderation and compromise. There will be no quick solution, unfortunately.

Joe

[SVXphile]

I found the book...it is " Wanderings: Chaim Potok's History of the Jews" (available at Barnes and Nobel)

An extremely interesting read.

As I got home this evening, I saw pictures of President Bush visiting a mosque. I didn't catch the whole clip, perhaps a bit later. I give him points for that; good move. There are several million followers of Islam here in America, and the vast majority love America and would never dream of harming their country or innocent people. I must admit a basic ignorance of Islam, but I have a feeling that those terrorist extremists have about as much in common with mainstream Islam as I do with Hollow Earth Society..... Don (but there is a hole in that theory!)