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  #61  
Old 07-11-2001, 09:19 AM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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it would have to be heavily modded.....

like one of the cars off the "Fast and the Furious". You have to maintain the same level of mods is all i am trying to say.

For example: say you have an eclipse. you add a really nice wings west body kit, two and a half inch cat-back exhaust and a three inch exhaust pipe, new racing heart wheels, and even custom interior. if you dont at least lower this car it is going to look horrible, inspite of all your mods. it will look like something is missing, it will just be incomplete. it will ride to high and throw off the entire look you were after.

anyway that is how i feel when i look at a car with a huge wing and a set of custom wheels, it just looks incomplete to me. let me clarify something. it the custom wheels are the same size a stock then the car is fine. it only looks weird when bigger wheels are put on.
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  #62  
Old 07-11-2001, 10:30 AM
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eddycat2000 eddycat2000 is offline
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Re: you guessed it eddy....

Quote:
Originally posted by 1994SubaruSVX
but we all must agree that there is a toe-in, toe-out effect created because of the way the suspension was designed.
Well, at least in mind you have put the thing in a nutshell. How does normal suspension action by any definition constitute steering? And you knew I'd bite on that post! If I'm driving down the road and let go of the steering wheel, the road surface and alignment of my car will determine where it will head, the suspension will work as designed, yet I am not steering anything. I'm just sitting in the drivers seat passively.
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  #63  
Old 07-11-2001, 12:01 PM
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Aredubjay Aredubjay is offline
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This is going to be my final post on this subject. I've pointed to several explanations, I've cited articles, I've cited engineers, I've plead my case.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is now up for you to decide. I offer my final evidence -- Exhibit Z. The following is an e-mail I sent to a tech (Todd Erickson), the tech's response and a brief bio on the tech who answered my question. There will, no doubt, be a response to this, my final response but, I will try, with all my might to ignore it. From this point, I leave it to you to draw your own conclusion.


MY E-MAIL:

I got your e-mail address from the wrx.org site. I hope you don't mind my bothering you.

I've been embroiled in something of a "debate" over something called "passive rear wheel steering" which is mentioned in much Subaru literature, and also in the Road and Track Guide to the New SVX (Oh, I own a '92 Subaru SVX) and a terminology widely used on other cars (Citroen, Peugeot, Porsche and others). This, of course, is not the "active" all wheel steering available on the Japanese models, but more the "passive" toe-in, toe-out, under load in the vein of the Weissach Axle developed for Porsche in the '70's.

Could you possibly shed some light on this for me. Does the effect exist in fact? In theory? Your response would be appreciated.

Randy Johnson


TODD'S RESPONSE:

Yes it does. Think of rear suspension side loads and bushing compliance. When cornering hard the side load on the 2 lateral links is a lot. The bushings on the front (closest to the front of the car) lateral link are softer than the one towards the rear, thus that corner of the suspension toes in slightly. Does that make since?

Todd

TODD'S BIO:
Todd Erickson is an IDENTIFIX Asian specialist. Erickson is an Accredited Automotive Manager (AAM) with 16 years of diagnostic experience. He is a certified Subaru senior master technician, as well as ASE master certified, L1 and alternate fuels.

If anyone would like, I also have a link to Todd's full resume.
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Last edited by Aredubjay; 07-11-2001 at 12:16 PM.
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  #64  
Old 07-11-2001, 12:04 PM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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that is all i need to hear.

eddy if that does not convince you then nothing will. this guy is just as accredited as you and his answer speaks for itself.
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  #65  
Old 07-11-2001, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aredubjay
Does that make since?

Todd

Yup, makes since to me. I've said it over and over, if you guys need to have "passive" AWS on your cars, then you do have it.
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  #66  
Old 07-11-2001, 01:10 PM
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Re: that is all i need to hear.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1994SubaruSVX
eddy if that does not convince you then nothing will. this guy is just as accredited as you and his answer speaks for itself.
Ummmm, no, I have 20 years as a Subaru tech, (Senior Master the last few years, and don't start, the senior master program came out in the 90's), I'm also a GMC truck master technician, and I scored in the top 90 percent of the Pontiac guild. I also am/was a fully certified ASE mechanic. (Since my departure from a career I despised, one of those certifications has elapsed.)

And once again, hands held high! If you guys need to have it, then you do. I don't, I understand steering, bushings and bearings reacting to outside forces is not steering to *me*.
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Last edited by eddycat2000; 07-11-2001 at 01:12 PM.
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  #67  
Old 07-11-2001, 01:43 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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I've tried my best to stay out of this debate since it first reared its ugly head, but it needs to be shot dead & buried forever, so here's my bucks worth.
If I'm parked, or driving at 120 mph & turn the steering wheel & the front wheels turn in the direction that I've pointed the car AND the rear wheels change angle DUE TO MY TURNING THE STEERING WHEEL, then I'd say I got 4WS. Anything else that effects the rear wheels besides my turning the steering wheel AIN'T steering, it's reaction to other things. If I hit a curb at 30 mph, & the car's direction is altered, do I now have CURB steering? IF we still want to SAY that the camber, caster etc. change due to road conditions & vehicle direction change, & that's 4WS, then the arguement will never cease. I say toMAHto, you say toMAYto, & it's still a red, squishy thing to be hurled at each other when civil debates become boring. Tsu.
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  #68  
Old 07-11-2001, 01:56 PM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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you guys still dont understand.....

randy, myself, and mr. pockets are NOT saying the SVX has AWS. we are saying that it does have some type of engineered/passive toe-in toe-out suspension system that enables the car to take curves better faster. this system allows the car to steer better to corner better under load (high speed) cornering. again we all agree that the SVX in the US does not have any form of ACTIVE AWS. but to deny that engineers designed the rear suspension to toe-in and out, to aid steering into corners is just ridiculous. screw the literature put out by road and track or some dumb manual, read some of the websites randy posted and try to figure out that what we are talking about has nothing to do with the AWS system available in the Japanese SVX or any other active AWS system.
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1994 SVX, true dual Magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, 17" Enkei RS6 wheels, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 225/45/17 rubber, zinc plated cross-drilled rotors with yellow painted brake calipers. B&M tranny cooler rated at 19,000 GVW. GC springs and Koni strut inserts installed and the car is lowered two inches all the way around!!
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  #69  
Old 07-11-2001, 02:42 PM
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eddycat2000 eddycat2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Mummert
IF we still want to SAY that the camber, caster etc. change due to road conditions & vehicle direction change, & that's 4WS, then the arguement will never cease. I say toMAHto, you say toMAYto, & it's still a red, squishy thing to be hurled at each other when civil debates become boring. Tsu.
No, you have brought up a point that in my vehemence <sp> to dispute this whole "passive" AWS thread that I had completely neglected to notice. Which side of the car will pull more, the one with the most negative or positive caster? (Negative for you non-techs). Toe in, (or out, yes there are cars that have toe out specs), has little, if any measure of how the car steers. Toe in is set to align the steering wheel and to make tire wear minimal. Hmmmm...might have to get out my manuals, but your post brings back many years of aligning cars...Please note, that the caster and camber are not adjustable on the rear of any Subaru that I know of, unless you drill or weld or something.

Thank you Ron! I had totally spaced that you can drive a car that is completely out of whack by toe spec and it will drive straight down the road, but the steering wheel will be off center and the tires will wear prematurely. Damn do I feel like a doofus now! I could have ended this whole thread easily just explaining that. DOH!
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  #70  
Old 07-11-2001, 02:56 PM
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Guy, I assume that Randy has stopped on this topic. Perry, I assume has put a stop to this as well. So, can I sum it up then? Ok. I love argements mind you but this one just tops anything I have ever engaged on.

We are arguing on the terminology -- on how a wheel turns due to an external force. Some call it passive turning, others call it slight moment due to design, and even others can claim that it's a loose end. The fact at the end of the day is... the wheels at the back turns slightly, in the opposite direction of the wheels at the front. Call it passive turning, or movement due to pressure. It turns right? To make it simple, why don't we dub this action with a name we can all agree on -- without the word passive. How about "lateral toe movement" for the lack of better word? It's the same thing right? So, all SVX comes with LTM then.

My 2 cents worth of input into the discussion.
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  #71  
Old 07-11-2001, 08:47 PM
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