Pray for All

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by dromano
Sadly, freedom was the big loser on 9/11/01. Reality check: we are all from some where else unless you're a grizzley or a clam.

My wife and I were discussing this last night. With all the focus in recent years on 'multiculturalism,' we've really lost something else that's very important - patriotism.

I know a little bit of my family's history and origins, but first and foremost I am an AMERICAN. Not European-American or Swiss-American or German-American. Just American.

I have no problem with celebrating different cultures and traditions and what makes us all different. But of all the lessons this terrible, terrible tragedy teaches us, I hope one of them is that - no matter what our backgrounds - we are all Americans. If this event unifies us again - to defend ourselves, to restore our security and to rebuild - then the thousands will not have died in vain.

[cocacola08]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets

I know a little bit of my family's history and origins, but first and foremost I am an AMERICAN. Not European-American or Swiss-American or German-American. Just American.

AMEN brotha!

I feel exactly the same.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


My wife and I were discussing this last night. With all the focus in recent years on 'multiculturalism,' we've really lost something else that's very important - patriotism.

I know a little bit of my family's history and origins, but first and foremost I am an AMERICAN. Not European-American or Swiss-American or German-American. Just American.

I have no problem with celebrating different cultures and traditions and what makes us all different. But of all the lessons this terrible, terrible tragedy teaches us, I hope one of them is that - no matter what our backgrounds - we are all Americans. If this event unifies us again - to defend ourselves, to restore our security and to rebuild - then the thousands will not have died in vain.

This is an excellent point, Nick. I remember reading passages in a book not too long ago that described "Patriotism" as a disease that we should best rid ourselves of, and that to teach it in our public school systems was doing an injustice to our children. It also strongly advocated the elimination of prayer in our schools and discouraging any form of religion, because it caused us to depend on something other than ourselves. I fairly bristled as I read this book -- especially considering it was written in 1955, the year I was born.

I thought of this, especially when I heard the Congress singing "God Bless America" on the Capitol steps. I thought, how sad it was that there is an entire generation that could not sing along, because they had not been taught the words to this song and many of the patriotic standards that my generation sang as a daily "warm up" for class in elementary school.

I too am first and foremost an American. My "heritage" consists of those who've committed atrocities against mankind, those who took the long ride 'cross the pond to start this fine country, and those who were here to greet those boats. But, now, they are all represented by the patchwork that identifies the culmination of their struggles -- strips of cloth sewn together and embroidered with stars -- it did not "bow" during the Olympic Games of pre-World War II Germany. It will not bow now.

[svxter]

Originally posted by Aredubjay



I thought long and hard about this, this morning on my 40 minute drive to work, as my "mourning" process began to progress from sadness to anger. Yes, I'm willing to admit that over the past few days, I've wanted to strike out and ease the anger that I'm feeling, and to visit wholesale "justice" upon as many of "those people" as I could find. Yes I was wrong, and I hang my head in shame that I would even entertain such thoughts. Please forgive me.

As my logical mind began to gestate, not only the current events, but the past, logic finally won out. We cannot indict a people for the acts of the few zealots. If we follow this line of logic, we would have to indict all Christians for the few who bombed Abortion clinics, not so long ago. We would have to indict and release our anger upon all teenagers for the senseless acts in The highs schools of Paducah, Arkansas and Columbine. And, most frighteningly, we would have to indict all AMERICANS for the acts of Tim McVey and his familiars.

Justice MUST be served, but let us be sure that those to whom we mete out justice are the ones who deserve it.

Well and rightly said.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Aredubjay


This is an excellent point, Nick. I remember reading passages in a book not too long ago that described "Patriotism" as a disease that we should best rid ourselves of, and that to teach it in our public school systems was doing an injustice to our children. It also strongly advocated the elimination of prayer in our schools and discouraging any form of religion, because it caused us to depend on something other than ourselves. I fairly bristled as I read this book -- especially considering it was written in 1955, the year I was born.

I'm sorry, Randy - I agree with most of those ideas that you just quoted.

I don't think patriotism necessarily means propoganda, which is probably what that boook suggested. And I don't think it means collective ideals. To me it means being proud of what our nation stands for and the ideals it represents. Teach that to children and the patriotism will follow. Forcing the classes to blindly say 'the pledge' before school isn't the same thing. In that I have to agree with (what I speculate) the author of that book was getting at.

<I had a paragraph in here concerning the statement about religion, but I deleted it. I have tried very hard to keep my thoughts on the subject to myself on this board. I have found that, no matter how tolerant I am of others' practices, mine are rarely accepted as openly. I think this is neither the time nor the place.>

My point was that we have been fractured in recent years and that a focus on multiculturalism has accidentally formed these divisions.

Celebrate your heritage, if you like. But remember that this nation is something proud to be a part of and don't ever forget that. I think the hyphenated monikers denoting heritage distract us from that.

I think that the criminals who attacked us two days ago were hoping we would be divided further. Thankfully the opposite seems to have happened. For now, at least, we seem to be a nation of Americans again.

[WestCoastSVX]

I have been following this thread as time allows the last couple days. I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I'm here and my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones, and to our great nation.

Events like this really put things in perspective. I was ready to come in here Tuesday morning and post about my SVX being hit in the parking garage while I was at work Monday. Instead, I woke up early (6am Pacific Time) and had a strange feeling to turn on the TV. Needless to say, my wife and I ended up seeing all the major events of the morning as they happened live, from the 2nd plane hit on. Our hearts just sank lower and lower. It kind of makes a dented fender and broken turn signal seem insignificant. There will be another time for that. For now we must sort through our feelings and support each other.

[mohrds]

<<I think the hyphenated monikers denoting heritage distract us from that.>>
I agree completely. That and the fact that I'm such a mutt, I'd get writer's cramps just writing it all down.

<<Teach that to children and the patriotism will follow. Forcing the classes to blindly say 'the pledge' before school isn't the same thing>>
I agree in theory, but I can't imagine the current parents and school administrations following through. In fact, I was outraged when I attended my neighbor's public high school graduation in June and found out that their school does not sing the national anthem at graduation. They sing something called "The Black National Anthem" which I was unaware existed until that night. Apparently it is used to make the students feel "a special part of America" I could not imagine my high school choosing an alternate song such as "The German National Anthem", if one exists just because we were almost all of German descent. We are ALL Americans if we choose to live our lives here.
I feel we need a limited amount of forced patriotism otherwise we will continue on our separate paths.

BTW, What you call propaganda, I call advertising. You want to sell patriotism, advertise it to be something you desire.

Just the unorganized thoughts of a:
German-English-French-Slovenian-Native-American


Doug

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by MacGyver
I have been following this thread as time allows the last couple days. I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I'm here and my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones, and to our great nation.

Events like this really put things in perspective. I was ready to come in here Tuesday morning and post about my SVX being hit in the parking garage while I was at work Monday. Instead, I woke up early (6am Pacific Time) and had a strange feeling to turn on the TV. Needless to say, my wife and I ended up seeing all the major events of the morning as they happened live, from the 2nd plane hit on. Our hearts just sank lower and lower. It kind of makes a dented fender and broken turn signal seem insignificant. There will be another time for that. For now we must sort through our feelings and support each other.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. We all have things we want to get out in a public way, and this seems to have been a great place to do it. The added bonus is that we see everyone else's thoughts and feelings and learn more in the process.

I almost wish I had heard all the news at once. I was listening to it as it happened and nobody knew what was going on. When the second plane hit, my first thought was, 'they're trying to knock them down.'

I didn't want to be right about that.

And as more and more bad things started to happen and rumors of other events were flying like mad...terrifying, watching violence like that in places you would never imagine it.

I hope you're happy, you sick f*cks - you scared the crap out of me. Enjoy it while you can.

This is one of my favorite quotes from this thread, from Joe in Ireland:

"The American Nation was built from the best of Europe's pioneers, and from resilient Native American stock. You will absorb this, lick your wounds and come back smiling."

Oh, we are so gonna be smiling. Who amongst our enemies realizes that greater forces than those that compose their ranks are following the trails just to make SURE we get the right people? I never enjoy violence against people because I always feel there's a way to avoid it. But this time our enemies don't follow any kind of rules and their goal was never a diplomatic solution.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by mohrds
[BBTW, What you call propaganda, I call advertising. You want to sell patriotism, advertise it to be something you desire.

Just the unorganized thoughts of a:
German-English-French-Slovenian-Native-American


Doug [/B]

Right, but my point is that just holding your hand over your heart and saying the pledge makes us think of our history or the events we've experienced in our lives - but it means little to a kid. I don't remember saying the pledge and feeling any great pride in our nation. That's just a regimented activity. Advertise? OF COURSE. But some people think the symbols of learning how to fold a flag or saying the pledge or any of the other acts that trigger pride in us as adults are going to have the same effect on kids, who have few (if any) memories or experiences for those symbols to remind them of.

Okay, so I looked up the alternative anthem you brought up. I can't see how it does anything but foster separation.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


I'm sorry, Randy - I agree with most of those ideas that you just quoted.

I don't think patriotism necessarily means propoganda, which is probably what that boook suggested. And I don't think it means collective ideals. To me it means being proud of what our nation stands for and the ideals it represents. Teach that to children and the patriotism will follow. Forcing the classes to blindly say 'the pledge' before school isn't the same thing. In that I have to agree with (what I speculate) the author of that book was getting at.

<I had a paragraph in here concerning the statement about religion, but I deleted it. I have tried very hard to keep my thoughts on the subject to myself on this board. I have found that, no matter how tolerant I am of others' practices, mine are rarely accepted as openly. I think this is neither the time nor the place.>

My point was that we have been fractured in recent years and that a focus on multiculturalism has accidentally formed these divisions.

Celebrate your heritage, if you like. But remember that this nation is something proud to be a part of and don't ever forget that. I think the hyphenated monikers denoting heritage distract us from that.

I think that the criminals who attacked us two days ago were hoping we would be divided further. Thankfully the opposite seems to have happened. For now, at least, we seem to be a nation of Americans again.

Nick, I'm not trying to sell anything. For you to agree, or disagree is your right and one of the principles upon which this country was founded.

The same with religion. If there is a God, then, my belief in him doesn't make him any bigger nor someone's disbelief make him smaller. We have the right to believe or disbelieve without prejudice. I do not, and will not think any less of you for whatever your beliefs are in that regard.

The lady's point in the book I was reading was to eliminate all pride in country, all countries, in order to create a single global society.

As for a mindless, trivial "rote" recitation of the pledge to the flag, or singing the national anthem, or learning patriotic songs as a child, we did it knowing full well what they meant, and did not take their recitiation or singing lightly. We, of course, were still living in the shadow of a nuclear threat, the Cuban missle crisis, the Vietnam "conflict." . . . just to name a few. Even as children, we knew what patriotism meant and enjoyed showing it.

If it has become "rote" then, it is because we have taken these things for granted, becoming complacent due to this long lull of peace. When the only "war" one generation has known is a two day clinic for the Iraqis, instead of years of bloodshed and lost lives, it is easy to become lulled into a sense of "yeah, this is America and we're cool."

I am hoping this is a major wakeup call that does allow us to know why we say the pledge to the flag and puff out our chests when we sing "My Country 'tis of Thee" (even if it was stolen from "God Save the QUeen" ).

Agree, or disagree -- that's what makes this country great. You can air your opinion and I mine and we can do it without fear of getting killed over it.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
Agree, or disagree -- that's what makes this country great. You can air your opinion and I mine and we can do it without fear of getting killed over it.

Heh - it's clear we mostly agree, we've just experienced different things.

'nuf said.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Heh - it's clear we mostly agree, we've just experienced different things.

'nuf said.

I TOTALLY agree.

I can feel the love.

[cocacola08]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
If it has become "rote" then, it is because we have taken these things for granted, becoming complacent due to this long lull of peace. When the only "war" one generation has known is a two day clinic for the Iraqis, instead of years of bloodshed and lost lives, it is easy to become lulled into a sense of "yeah, this is America and we're cool."

As one of the younger generation, having to go by "war" stories of my "elders" of what a real war/"conflict" is, this whole thing is TERRIFYING.

I don't know about anyone else but you had to know something like this was going to happen sooner or later. I hope that this is not the beggining of the next "real" war/conflict.

I for one am truly frightened, that we have not seen the last nor the worst of this "new enemy, terrorism." We should all be thankful--to whom/whatever you thank--that there was not a weapon of mass destruction loaded onto those planes, or somewhere on the ground.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by cocacola08


As one of the younger generation, having to go by "war" stories of my "elders" of what a real war/"conflict" is, this whole thing is TERRIFYING.

I don't know about anyone else but you had to know something like this was going to happen sooner or later. I hope that this is not the beggining of the next "real" war/conflict.

I for one am truly frightened, that we have not seen the last nor the worst of this "new enemy, terrorism." We should all be thankful--to whom/whatever you thank--that there was not a weapon of mass destruction loaded onto those planes, or somewhere on the ground.

Kev,
When I was a very small child, I remember becoming absolutely horrified every time I heard a large plane fly overhead. My grandfather had a book that was a Life magazine (there was not Time/Life back then ) photo essay on World War II. The carnage represented there, along with the war movies I watched as a kid made me fear that one day, it WOULD happen to us. Those thoughts left as I grew older. It's sad to think that now, at 46 years of age, I will revisit those fears, every time I hear a plane fly overhead. Not as intensely as I did then, but, nonetheless it will be there.

[cocacola08]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
The carnage represented there, along with the war movies I watched as a kid made me fear that one day, it WOULD happen to us.

So now that it has happened....twice (Pearl Harbor)......what do we do? I think that's what the brains in washington and elsewhere, are pondering. Soon (hopefully) they will find that answer and resolve the situation for now, but hate will NEVER die, it will happen again, wipe out all the extremists and their families, ya whatever that'll solve nothing,

THERE IS NO ANSWER. THERE IS NO WAY TO STOP THIS.

Us, "you hit me, I'll hit you back"
then, "hit us back we'll hit you harder"
Us----"ok, we'll hit you.....
nevermind......"This is the post that never ends, it goes on, and on....."