The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > General SVX Babble

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-03-2004, 10:34 AM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
Rep from the outside world
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 1,209
Send a message via AIM to Shadow248
This thread is laughable. I don't even know what to say without posting three pages worth of info. So this is going to be extremely abbreviated.

It is common knowledge to mechanics that all lexus (Lexi?) are toyotas (that is absolutely true - as of yet, there are NO lexus only platforms, some are mixed or stretched versions of toyotas...but no dedicated lexus platforms), Infinitis are all nissans, and Acuras are hondas. Audi and VW is different only in that it depends on where you buy your Audi. US market Audi's are ALL VW's. European Audi's are mostly independent. So get your Audi from Europe (and get used to shifting with your left hand).

The real laughable part is how everyone is crying about GM "messing with" Subaru. Like Subaru's got it all figured out, and a company with over 100 years in car building experience could do nothing to help them out? PLEASE! Also you act like Subaru is doing GM a favor by sharing it's parts! Thanks to Subaru's "wonderous" AWD systems, the new Grand Prix and Bonneville are still FWD. They were both SUPPOSED to be available in AWD versions, using a Subaru designed AWD system (example - Grand Prix G8 concept and Bonneville GXP concept both used the system), however the system proved unreliable and ridiculously expensive to fix. Thanks alot, geniuses.

I was really dissapointed when they ditched the AWD project so i'm very sour towards Subaru about it, and now to hear you people whining about GM "messing with" Subaru - GIVE ME A BREAK! Sounds to me like Subaru could use a little help in the "simplicity of design" department.

Ok i'm going to shut up now.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-03-2004, 10:55 AM
Landshark's Avatar
Landshark Landshark is offline
Hater
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 10,807
Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
This thread is laughable. I don't even know what to say without posting three pages worth of info.
you do realize you're on a forum dedicated to a Subaru, right?

Quote:
The real laughable part is how everyone is crying about GM "messing with" Subaru. Like Subaru's got it all figured out, and a company with over 100 years in car building experience could do nothing to help them out? PLEASE! Also you act like Subaru is doing GM a favor by sharing it's parts!
100 years and they still haven't figured it out. sad. they seem to have made leaps and bounds in quality improvement, but styling is still lacking. the only car i can think of that i like by GM is the WS6 Trans Am, but they killed it off. the new Corvette looks nice from the front, but the rearend looks like it was lopped off with an axe. they were close.... the GTO looks just like a Gran Prix, which they astoundingly managed to make even UGLIER. Subaru IS doing them a favor, by giving them an almost entire WRX to use as a "Saab". Subaru benefits by more exposure to a larger market.


Quote:
Thanks to Subaru's "wonderous" AWD systems, the new Grand Prix and Bonneville are still FWD. They were both SUPPOSED to be available in AWD versions, using a Subaru designed AWD system (example - Grand Prix G8 concept and Bonneville GXP concept both used the system), however the system proved unreliable and ridiculously expensive to fix. Thanks alot, geniuses.
maybe that's because the Subaru AWD system was designed for Subarus. in typical GM fashion, they were grabbing stuff from the parts bins to slap together something "new."
__________________
Alan

1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD!
2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD!
1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD!
2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+]
2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray)
2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-03-2004, 11:26 AM
lhopp77's Avatar
lhopp77 lhopp77 is offline
Old Timer (age that is)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Las Vegas, New Mexico
Posts: 3,514
Send a message via Yahoo to lhopp77
Registered SVX
GM Stay Away

As I understand it, the main problem with adapting the Subaru AWD system to GM products was the GM drive train and NOT the Subaru system. You are talking about trying to convert an AWD primarily designed for an inline mounted engine to a traverse mounted engine. Results would have been better if MOPAR had a share in Subaru instead of GM.

Like others--if GM contaminates Subaru, I will never own another.

Also as to the laudatory comments about the quality of Audi the SVX I think there should be a reality check. I agree if you compare a current Audi to an SVX that the comments are accurate. If you compare the Audi of the SVX era--it is a total different story.

Lee

SVXx4
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-03-2004, 11:51 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: none
Posts: 3,430
Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark


maybe that's because the Subaru AWD system was designed for Subarus. in typical GM fashion, they were grabbing stuff from the parts bins to slap together something "new."
Well put.
You know, if I wanted to drive a bleepin' GM product, I'd just go buy a Lumina. No, what I want is a Subaru. Period.


dcb
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-03-2004, 12:06 PM
Landshark's Avatar
Landshark Landshark is offline
Hater
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 10,807
Quote:
Originally posted by dcarrb


Well put.
You know, if I wanted to drive a bleepin' GM product, I'd just go buy a Lumina. No, what I want is a Subaru. Period.


dcb
i've owned a Lumina and so did my brother. you don't want one. trust me on this.
__________________
Alan

1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD!
2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD!
1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD!
2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+]
2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray)
2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black)
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-03-2004, 06:37 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
Rep from the outside world
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 1,209
Send a message via AIM to Shadow248
Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
you do realize you're on a forum dedicated to a Subaru, right?
For the 2 billionth time, yes. I'm just trying to shine some daylight into this horribly sheltered world.

Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
100 years and they still haven't figured it out. sad.
Sounds to me like you're the one who needs to figure some things out. Subaru's lifetime and experience is a fraction of what GM holds. To put it in perspective, take the lumina you talk about being so bad. There are more satisfied LUMINA owners in this world then there are SUBARU owners (happy or not). To be able to say that a company's less stellar model attracts and holds more loyals then another company's entire line means that we're not even in the same ballpark here.

Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
maybe that's because the Subaru AWD system was designed for Subarus. in typical GM fashion, they were grabbing stuff from the parts bins to slap together something "new."
Ahh yes, the inevitable excuses.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ihopp77
As I understand it, the main problem with adapting the Subaru AWD system to GM products was the GM drive train and NOT the Subaru system. You are talking about trying to convert an AWD primarily designed for an inline mounted engine to a traverse mounted engine. Results would have been better if MOPAR had a share in Subaru instead of GM.
There's another one.

Spoiler - The Grand Prix G8 and Bonneville GXP concept both used longitudinal mount smallblock V8's.

Quote:
Originally posted by dcarrb
You know, if I wanted to drive a bleepin' GM product, I'd just go buy a Lumina. No, what I want is a Subaru. Period.
That's fine. I'm not trying to say your wrong for liking subaru, just that we're all on the same planet here.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-03-2004, 06:45 PM
Tofu
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Just for fun:

Lexus LS = Toyota Celsior
Lexus IS = Toyota Altezza
Lexus ES = Toyota Windom, ie a Camry in drag
Lexus SC = Toyota Soarer
Lexus GS = Toyota Aristo
Lexus RX = Toyota Harrier, ie a jacked up Camry in drag
Lexus LX = Toyota Land Cruiser
Lexus GX = Toyota Sequoia

"It is common knowledge to mechanics that all lexus (Lexi?) are toyotas (that is absolutely true - as of yet, there are NO lexus only platforms, some are mixed or stretched versions of toyotas...but no dedicated lexus platforms)"

Interestingly enough, this can be argued, as Lexus is simply a brand name for Toyota engineered products. What Toyota has accomplished, in large part, is the synergy that GM, Fiat, DaimlerChrysler, and other mainstream/luxury marques are looking for. Take the case of the ES300/Windom/Camry: the Camry benefits from a platform that is engineered for luxury applications, while the ES300/Windom benefit from the shared parts and rationalities of scale of worldwide Camry production numbers.

"Audi and VW is different only in that it depends on where you buy your Audi. US market Audi's are ALL VW's. European Audi's are mostly independent."

Um, no they aren't. If anything, Audis in Europe suffer even more from their shared lineage, because of the addition of two more brands, SEAT and Skoda, which share their platforms. SEAT is positioned laterally from VW, meant to be a sporty alternative to Alfa Romeo, while Skoda is a downmarket brand meant to offer cut-rate products for the caviar taste/peanut butter budget masses.

"GTO looks just like a Gran Prix, which they astoundingly managed to make even UGLIER."

The GTO is actually an Australian market car called the Holden Monaro, which, with a revised grille and taillights, magically became the GTO. It looked that way years before anyone thought of slapping a Pontiac badge on it.

--------

Re: Subaru/Saab/GM synergy.

Sometimes, it works. The Pontiac Solstice will make it to production largely because of the shared parts that could be pulled from the GM parts bin. This includes, interestingly enough, Subaru components in tactile-critical areas, such as the steering. The Solstice, which will likely be joined by Chevrolet and Saturn platform mates, will probably be a better car for it. That such an interesting car could be built for a $20,000 sticker, and that it will use proven components, just makes being an enthusiast that much more fun.

The payoff to Subaru in all of this is largely an economy of scale. Think of all the bits and pieces of a car that you never see, think about, or care about. I work in this field (NOT Schuck's!), and I can tell you that there are a ton of parts that you couldn't give rat's ass about that cost big time money, because the tooling for them costs money, regardless of how many or how few you need. Things even as insignificant as water tubes for the heads, or baffle plates, or tensioner springs all cost money. Switches, light lenses, door handle mechanisms, etc. all add cost to a car, and if you can get those parts from a vendor that makes them on the order of millions rather then thousands, then you're way ahead of the game. Consider that Delco has patented a door stamping and assembly process that cuts the cost of making a single door by 60%. All of these parts are non critical, and yet, now Subaru has access to this technology. It may not be exciting to you or me, but component cost is one of the larger factors that determines the profitability, and hence the long term survival of a company.

As far as things like the rebadged Forester go, that's how the world works. You'd be surprised how many premium products go rebadged in other markets. As bad as it may stick in the craw, it's pretty much necessary. Subaru never had the resources necessary to set up dealer and support networks in many countries, and rebadging their products and selling them with a known name and with an established infrastructure will likely work out to a long term benefit. Case in point: Mitusbishi didn't have a dealer network when they entered the US market. For a period of time, they had to rebadge their cars as Chrysler products, until they had the market penetration and brand equity to launch their own dealer network.

The Saabaru was necessary for Saab, just as the relatively wretched ES250 was for Lexus. Premium marques these days need an entry level product. Saab doesn't have the resources to do one on their own, and there wasn't anything else in the GM family that would have provided a better alternative. As it stands, it's a stopgap, just as the ES250 was. The next product development cycle will still share a platform, but platforms today are much different then the bad old days when a Cimarron was merely a Cavalier with a different grille.

Keep in mind this too: How many people do you think spent $80,000 on a Lotus Esprit and were depressed that it had Toyota taillights? How many people do you think returned their $250,000 Aston Martin Virages because they had VW Scirroco taillights? How many people do you think don't like their new Jaguar XJ8s because they have a Ford HVAC system? Do you think Jay Leno and Ralph Lauren hate their McLaren F1's because the taillights are made for a commercial duty container truck sold in Germany? Parts sharing is nothing new. The trick is transparent parts sharing. "Saavy" enthusiasts may bemoan the presence of Ford power window switches in an Aston Martin DB9, but I can pretty much guarantee you no one that writes a check for one will much care.

Last edited by Tofu; 03-03-2004 at 06:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-03-2004, 07:20 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
Rep from the outside world
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 1,209
Send a message via AIM to Shadow248
Wow dude, you rule. You wrote the book that I didn't have the patience for. NICE.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-03-2004, 10:57 PM
Landshark's Avatar
Landshark Landshark is offline
Hater
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 10,807
Quote:
I'm just trying to shine some daylight into this horribly sheltered world.
wow, thanks for showing me the light!
i've owned 3 GM cars, my family more than i count, friends, etc. i've owned them, driven them, worked on them. believe it or not, the SVX is my first *Japanese* car, in addition to being my first Subaru. guess what? i just wish someone would have shown me the Subaru light sooner. *i* like them better than GM! YOU like GM products - good for YOU! if it makes you feel better about yourself, i'd choose a GM over a Ford or Chrysler - if i had no other choice.



Quote:
Sounds to me like you're the one who needs to figure some things out. Subaru's lifetime and experience is a fraction of what GM holds. To put it in perspective, take the lumina you talk about being so bad. There are more satisfied LUMINA owners in this world then there are SUBARU owners (happy or not). To be able to say that a company's less stellar model attracts and holds more loyals then another company's entire line means that we're not even in the same ballpark here.
ah, back to the "more people have X, so X MUST be better" arguement! if you must join the masses, then convert to Islam, eat at McDonald's every meal, buy your consumer electronics at Walmart, and enjoy your life of mediocrity.


Quote:
Ahh yes, the inevitable excuses.
yes, GM didn't, for example, rush the Monaro-to-GTO into production and use some its old (but getting better!) quality control standards. from Car & Driver:

"At least the GTO's stiff, rattle-free body soaks up shakes that would've had the old Camaro and Firebird shedding parts.

Speaking of which, the GTO did shed one or two of its own, including its battery tie-down and the wing-mounted center stop lamp, which fell off when one of its plastic screws sheared.

Additionally, the A/C repeatedly switched itself on and off, the button controlling the passenger-seat motor broke, and the suspension alignment was off enough to occupy a Las Vegas frame shop for two hours."

sounds like something i'd want to spend $30,000 on! that's a new one - guess think how tight that rattle trap will be at 50,000 miles.

Quote:
I'm not trying to say your wrong for liking subaru, just that we're all on the same planet here.
you stay on your planet and i'll stay on mine, m'kay? great.
__________________
Alan

1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD!
2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD!
1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD!
2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+]
2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray)
2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-04-2004, 05:15 AM
wawazat??'s Avatar
wawazat?? wawazat?? is offline
Yeah, I'm still around
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Beverly Hills, MI
Posts: 3,770
Justa friendly reminder

Debate is great, spirited debate is even better, but no personal attacks, flame wars, or other BS will be tolerated!

mkay, great...

Now back to your thread.

Todd
__________________
Down to none
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-04-2004, 06:00 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: none
Posts: 3,430
Quote:
Originally posted by Tofu
J
As far as things like the rebadged Forester go, that's how the world works.
Precisely the problem. I don't want to do business with General Motors, nor with Microsoft or Wal-Mart. I'd prefer to buy nuts and bolts from the local, family-owned hardware store that was around well before my time, but Ace and Home Depot crushed the life right out of 'em.

Unfortunately, the way the world works, consumers have fewer and fewer real choices.

(End of rant.)


dcb
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-04-2004, 07:11 AM
Landshark's Avatar
Landshark Landshark is offline
Hater
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 10,807
Re: Justa friendly reminder

Quote:
Originally posted by wawazat??
Debate is great, spirited debate is even better, but no personal attacks, flame wars, or other BS will be tolerated!

mkay, great...

Now back to your thread.

Todd
Rob isn't in here calling people retards, so we're fine, m'kay. great. wouldn't want to offend the overly sensitive by talking about cars.....


jeez
__________________
Alan

1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD!
2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD!
1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD!
2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+]
2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray)
2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black)
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-04-2004, 07:14 AM
Landshark's Avatar
Landshark Landshark is offline
Hater
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 10,807
Quote:
Originally posted by dcarrb


Precisely the problem. I don't want to do business with General Motors, nor with Microsoft or Wal-Mart. I'd prefer to buy nuts and bolts from the local, family-owned hardware store that was around well before my time, but Ace and Home Depot crushed the life right out of 'em.

Unfortunately, the way the world works, consumers have fewer and fewer real choices.

(End of rant.)


dcb
that's why Porsche had to sell an SUV ..... so they could make enough loot to still remain independant so they could keep making sportscars without being gobbled up by GM or VW.
__________________
Alan

1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD!
2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD!
1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD!
2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD!
2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+]
2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray)
2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black)
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-04-2004, 10:19 AM
Mr. Pockets's Avatar
Mr. Pockets Mr. Pockets is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 6,916
Send a message via ICQ to Mr. Pockets
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark


that's why Porsche had to sell an SUV ..... so they could make enough loot to still remain independant so they could keep making sportscars without being gobbled up by GM or VW.
Are you sure about that? I mean, I never heard anything about Porsche being in financial trouble or even suffereing from slow sales. That doesn't mean it didn't happen - just that I never heard it.
__________________


2005 RX-8 Grand Touring
2005 Outback
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon

END OF LINE
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-04-2004, 11:13 AM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
Rep from the outside world
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 1,209
Send a message via AIM to Shadow248
Quote:
Originally posted by Lanshark
wow, thanks for showing me the light!
i've owned 3 GM cars, my family more than i count, friends, etc. i've owned them, driven them, worked on them. believe it or not, the SVX is my first *Japanese* car, in addition to being my first Subaru. guess what? i just wish someone would have shown me the Subaru light sooner. *i* like them better than GM! YOU like GM products - good for YOU! if it makes you feel better about yourself, i'd choose a GM over a Ford or Chrysler - if i had no other choice.
We've been over this already. The issue here is not your personal preference. I think it's very obvious at this point how you feel about certain brands of cars. That's great, and has no effect on my opinion of you whatsoever. The issue here is the continued hypocracy that exists in this forum. If one American car is bad, then they all are...however if one Subaru is bad, that's just an insolated case...a lemon, and does not properly represent the brand. Get it straight.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lanshark
ah, back to the "more people have X, so X MUST be better" arguement! if you must join the masses, then convert to Islam, eat at McDonald's every meal, buy your consumer electronics at Walmart, and enjoy your life of mediocrity.
It's amazing how you twist every argument about GM into a numbers argument. That's not what I said at all. I'm saying there are more LUMINA LOYALS...people who would say the lumina is a great car. Not just people that have owned one. So i'm saying there are more people out there that would say the lumina is one of the best cars out there than there are people who would say the same about any Subaru model. How many people do you know that would say McDonald's makes some of the best food there is? Or that Wal-Mart carries all the best brands? This is what i'm talking about...not just people who have owned the car, but people who have owned it and loved it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lanshark
yes, GM didn't, for example, rush the Monaro-to-GTO into production and use some its old (but getting better!) quality control standards. from Car & Driver:...
You (conveniently) neglected to mention that the Car & Driver test used a preproduction car. Kind of an unfair example. Should I mention Automobile Magazine's test of the Preprodution STI? That was a disaster...but rarely are tests of that sort ever without problem. OR maybe I should talk about Car & Driver's test of the PRODUCTION Baja. No? Yeah didn't think so.

Also for the billionth time - IT WORKS BOTH WAYS

Quote:
Originally posted by dcarrb
Precisely the problem. I don't want to do business with General Motors, nor with Microsoft or Wal-Mart....

Unfortunately, the way the world works, consumers have fewer and fewer real choices.
Good luck to you my friend. What you mentioned is pretty much impossible. Do you use bank ATM's? If so then chances are you've used microsoft software. Have you taken the bus or train lately? Many city buses are using Natural gas/Diesel motors produced by GM and Isuzu. GP30/GP50 series train locomotives use diesels built in part by GM. Taxis? Nuff said there. Wal-Mart is so embedded in today's department store market, it's impossible not to be affected by it. If you buy products from Kraft/Nabisco, Keebler, Frito Lay (to name a few) then you are helping to support Wal-Mart. The store holds a massive share in each company's sales and therefore has a ton of pull in each company. These companies all but depend on Wal-Mart to survive. Each time you buy any of those products (and thousands of others), you are supporting Wal-Mart whether you like it or not.

I'm not saying it's right, just that you should get used to it cause it's not getting any better.

Plus how is Subaru any different than the huge companies? They use the same business practices, just on a smaller scale. To say that the cars are better or that they care about the customer more because they are a smaller company is just buying into their advertising. Also remember that NOW when you buy a Subaru, you are helping to support GM
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122