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  #16  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:17 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

We do not have a harmonic balancer on our engine. But I COULD BE WRONG about the crank. The way I understand it leads to my logical assumption of the crank being balanced rotationally. I would verify this with someone more knowledgable before slapping a lightweight pully on there.
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  #17  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:11 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Ok so I am putting a 94 pulley on a 92 and I need help getting the belts loose and also holding the crank from rotating while I tighten it on the pulley onto the crank so if you guys have any suggestions then please let me know ASAP
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  #18  
Old 02-02-2010, 07:19 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

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Originally Posted by sowise View Post
I just installed a light weight crank pulley so I no longer need my original I can send it to you in the mail. Probably wouldn't make it out until Tuesday and then a day later for delivery so Wed. unless I make it to NJ for something else I suppose.
The OEM pully incorporates a damper... I don't think it's a good thing to get rid of that feature, especially on a boxer engine.
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  #19  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:28 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

For what it's worth Perrin Performance has a disclaimer on their website saying that installation of their lightweight aluminum pulley (without rubber damping ring) may adversely affect engine life.

That being said, I have a lightweight pulley on my car. I believe I now get a bit of engine vibration around 2000 RPM that wasn't there before, but it seems to be sporadic. It's been on there for 1.5 years and about 20,000 KM/~12,000 miles.
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  #20  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:40 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboIQ View Post
The OEM pully incorporates a damper... I don't think it's a good thing to get rid of that feature, especially on a boxer engine.
Exactamundo, thats what it is meant to do. Its the counterweights that are unneeded on a HO design..... harmonic dampers help prevent stress fractures in the crankshaft.
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  #21  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:59 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

I will take my chances thanks, atleast they have a disclaimer that does release them from any liability in the case that something does happen.

However:
"GT2RS10-18-2003, 11:21 PM
Contacted Perrinperformance and here's what they have to say...

The argument that the reduced weight and removal of the rubber ring will destroy the front main bearing is wrong! The rubber ring between the two halves of the stock pulley is to make up for mfr. differences. Two cheap cast pieces pressed together with rubber allows for additional slop in both. If Subaru chose to install a pulley like ours would add significant cost to the engine and is not cost effective for a production piece. The rubber ring is NOT a harmonic balancer! You should go to your car and let it idle. Raise the hood and note how the belts will track side to side and up and down. This is a result of the much less than precise pulley found from the factory. This causes undue stress and wear not only on the pulleys but on the belts and accessories as well. Installation of our pulley will result in smooth, true, and long lasting belt wear and accessory lifespan is increased. Plus, throttle response, HP and torque are all increased dramatically for such an inexpensive painless part.

Crank bearings, and rod bearings are much more prone to premature wearout from increasing boost than from installation of a precision made billet pulley. This should not be a concern."

Plus:
"The main reason for a dampener is to help prevent crank walk and since the engine does not have to fight gravity in its running cycle there is no crank walk and hence no need for a dampening system."

Basically you can search all day long and find arguments on both sides of the fence, to each their own though. I am not doing anything crazy with my engine or going for excessive HP or SC/Turbo, so I am fairly certain this is a mod that will do what is intended for my purpose. Besides I wasn't promoting or pushing the lightweight one, I was offering my original one for basically the price of shipping.
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  #22  
Old 02-02-2010, 11:12 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

.

Cozykat is using the Fluidamphr Harmonic Balancer/ crank pulley on her rebuild. Great engineering, but a little pricey at $340.00.




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  #23  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:24 PM
TurboIQ TurboIQ is offline
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by sowise View Post
Contacted Perrinperformance and here's what they have to say...

The argument that the reduced weight and removal of the rubber ring will destroy the front main bearing is wrong! The rubber ring between the two halves of the stock pulley is to make up for mfr. differences. Two cheap cast pieces pressed together with rubber allows for additional slop in both. If Subaru chose to install a pulley like ours would add significant cost to the engine and is not cost effective for a production piece. The rubber ring is NOT a harmonic balancer! You should go to your car and let it idle. Raise the hood and note how the belts will track side to side and up and down. This is a result of the much less than precise pulley found from the factory. This causes undue stress and wear not only on the pulleys but on the belts and accessories as well. Installation of our pulley will result in smooth, true, and long lasting belt wear and accessory lifespan is increased. Plus, throttle response, HP and torque are all increased dramatically for such an inexpensive painless part.

Crank bearings, and rod bearings are much more prone to premature wearout from increasing boost than from installation of a precision made billet pulley. This should not be a concern."

Plus:
"The main reason for a dampener is to help prevent crank walk and since the engine does not have to fight gravity in its running cycle there is no crank walk and hence no need for a dampening system."

Basically you can search all day long and find arguments on both sides of the fence, to each their own though. I am not doing anything crazy with my engine or going for excessive HP or SC/Turbo, so I am fairly certain this is a mod that will do what is intended for my purpose. Besides I wasn't promoting or pushing the lightweight one, I was offering my original one for basically the price of shipping.
Well that is a nice bag full o' crap right there.

This IS a harmonic balancer, not the rubber itself, not the inner and outer pulleys but them alltogether. It has nothing to do with tolerances and balance (it's actually harder to balance a hamonic balancer than an aluminum pulley). And manufacturing a balancer costs more than machining a pulley like theirs. The harmonic balancer is there to scramble harmonics that would otherwise build on to make the rotating assembly vibrate at its natural harmonic frequency.

They'll say anything to sell their stuff. I personnaly went along with a Fluidampr like shown by SVXcess on my 4G63. I wouldn't risk it on a 4 inline, so not a chance I'd risk it on an H6.

Last edited by TurboIQ; 02-05-2010 at 01:26 PM.
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:33 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Not to completely disagree with you, as there might be some aspect of vibration dampening on the engine... but an H6 should be better balanced, and produce less vibration (harmonic or otherwise) than an inline 4, just by design.

Why would it be a worse risk on an h6, than an inline 4?... an H6 is one of the most inherently balanced, and smooth running engines short of a turbine or rotary... wouldn't that diminish the case for the necessity of harmonic vibration counteraction, or at least require less of it?

I was under the impression that the boxer crankshaft (individual opposed crankshaft journals, not 180-degree-V shared crank journals for opposite pistons) minimized the need for counterweights on the crankshaft, but that the rotational balance of having the piston banks 180 degrees from each other cancelled out much of the vibration characteristics.

A domestic V8 with a 90 degree bank angle imparts force vectors in two different directions, not directly opposed to each other, and both vectors downward at different angles, against the crankshaft's bearing caps, not toward a symmetrical mirror image on the other half of the engine, like a boxer. Also, there is the vibration of the piston firing order introduce a significant amount of vibration along the length of the crankshaft, and combining that with the rotational vibration on a 90-degree V8, most of those do require significant harmonic counteraction, moreso than even a 180-degree "flat-plane crank" V8s, like Ferraris tend to use.

If the stock pulley has some vibration dampening characteristics, it isn't that much, compared to a V6 or V8, or even a V10, nor an inline 3, 4, or 5. Even an inline 6 has longitudinal firing order balance more than most. And a V12 combines the firing order balance of an inline6, with the narrow firing pulse rotation of twelve pistons. AThe Ferrari flat 12s were 180-degree Vs, if I remember correctly.

I think an EZ-derived boxer 12, or an EG-based flat 12 would be insane engines. Even just true-boxer flat eight-cylinder engines would be fantastic. Especially with reverse-flow heads, and exhaust/turbos on the top side, direct fuel injection, and Valvetronic/VVEL/Valvematic sort of valve lift control to negate the need for a throttle body. DFI and Valvematic are in Toyota's bag of tricks... which Subaru might have an in-roads to license and use that technology.
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Last edited by BoxerFanatic; 02-05-2010 at 02:12 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:01 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

The more I read that crap, the madder I get.


The argument that the reduced weight and removal of the rubber ring will destroy the front main bearing is wrong! The rubber ring between the two halves of the stock pulley is to make up for mfr. differences. Two cheap cast pieces pressed together with rubber allows for additional slop in both.

No. Balancing has nothing to do with weight magnitude but rather weight distribution. Imbalance on heavy pieces can potentially cause more damage than on lightweight pieces, which therefore makes the OEM a higher quality part since it is heavier (with mass further away from the rotating axle) yet still has to be perfectly balanced.


If Subaru chose to install a pulley like ours would add significant cost to the engine and is not cost effective for a production piece. The rubber ring is NOT a harmonic balancer!

That POS costs 2$ to manufacture... Subaru sell theirs for 150$. Go figure the logic behind his argument.


You should go to your car and let it idle. Raise the hood and note how the belts will track side to side and up and down. This is a result of the much less than precise pulley found from the factory. This causes undue stress and wear not only on the pulleys but on the belts and accessories as well. Installation of our pulley will result in smooth, true, and long lasting belt wear and accessory lifespan is increased.

Belts do track side to side up and down... after a 6 pack of beer.


Plus, throttle response, HP and torque are all increased dramatically for such an inexpensive painless part.

Dramatically... what's a dramatic hp increase on a 230hp engine? How much hp do they "think" they are actually "freeing"?

Crank bearings, and rod bearings are much more prone to premature wearout from increasing boost than from installation of a precision made billet pulley. This should not be a concern.

Guess again.


The main reason for a dampener is to help prevent crank walk and since the engine does not have to fight gravity in its running cycle there is no crank walk and hence no need for a dampening system.

Crankwalk... an expression made up by early 2G DSM enthousiasts (and solely by them unless I believe) when they realized their crank would move a qarter inch sideways when they'd depress their clutch. ANYTHING they could put the blame on for bearing failure was considered... removing the harmonic balancer sure wouldn't help, but it was no patch Mitsu came up with for a cranwalk fix. And all that gravity bullcrap, I mean can this guy even be taken seriously, even as a clown?

Basically you can search all day long and find arguments on both sides of the fence, to each their own though. I am not doing anything crazy with my engine or going for excessive HP or SC/Turbo, so I am fairly certain this is a mod that will do what is intended for my purpose. Besides I wasn't promoting or pushing the lightweight one, I was offering my original one for basically the price of shipping.

Whatever man... it's your engine.

Last edited by TurboIQ; 02-05-2010 at 02:14 PM.
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  #26  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:08 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

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Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic View Post
Not to completely disagree with you, but an H6 should be better balanced, and produce less vibration (harmonic or otherwise) than an inline 4.

Why would it be a worse risk on an h6, than an inline 4?... an H6 is one of the most inherently balanced, and smooth running engines short of a turbine or rotary... wouldn't that diminish the case for the necessity of harmonic vibration counteraction, or at least require less of it?
Well you're a boxer fanatic, so you will obsiously be biased from the start. But chances are you might be right... I fell inline 4's run more smoothly than their flat counterpart.
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  #27  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:42 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

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Originally Posted by TurboIQ View Post
Well you're a boxer fanatic, so you will obsiously be biased from the start. But chances are you might be right... I fell inline 4's run more smoothly than their flat counterpart.
But you have to be a little bit careful, there.

Comparing to the Subaru flat 4... it has an offset firing order, and unequal length exhaust on the turbocharged engines. It is set up to make big exhaust pulses, and put them through to a turbo that is mounted high and on the side of the engine, closer to one set of exhaust ports than the other.

The Subaru H4 could run smoother, theoretically, with an opposing firing order, L-R-L-R -> rather than L-L-R-R-> (EJ firing order is 1-3-2-4), which no EJ engine has; as well as the equal length exhaust that the 2010 Legacy GT seems to offer, with a turbo, possibly a twin-scroll, mounted just below the crank pulley, rather than high-right-side... But it would sound a lot different. no lumpy burble from the exhaust. It would probably sound a lot like a light-inertia inline 4, with perhaps a bit of bass from the fact that it is a big of a big-displacement 4-cylinder, compared to something 2 liters or less.

With a flat 4, pistons 1 and 3 are on the opposite side of 2 and 4. On an inline 4, that particular firing order would skip over adjacent pistons, except from 3 to 2, in the center of the block, where it would minimize rocking motion. On a Subaru, 1 and 3 ARE adjacent pistons, as are 2 and 4. Like a V-engine, where odd numbers and even numbers are on opposite banks from each other.

A flat 4 could run smoother than Subaru happens to set them up, if I am understanding it correctly. It would be interesting to see an EJ25 with a 1-4-3-2, or 1-2-3-4 firing order.

A flat 6 has a 60 degree firing order, rather than 90, and the newer EZ motors use the following firing order: 1-6-3-2-5-4, which I believe is in common with the EG33. That further smooths out power delivery, and the staggered even-odd numbered firing order means that it fires across the block, and in a diagonal pattern, not all on one side at a time, then the other, like the H4 does.
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Last edited by BoxerFanatic; 02-05-2010 at 02:54 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:08 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic View Post
Not to completely disagree with you, as there might be some aspect of vibration dampening on the engine... but an H6 should be better balanced, and produce less vibration (harmonic or otherwise) than an inline 4, just by design.

Why would it be a worse risk on an h6, than an inline 4?... an H6 is one of the most inherently balanced, and smooth running engines short of a turbine or rotary... wouldn't that diminish the case for the necessity of harmonic vibration counteraction, or at least require less of it?
.
You are confusing mass rotating balance with Torsional vibration. The opposed piston engine has a good primary balance, with a small "rocking couple".
It is the length and the construction of the crankshaft that produces torsional vibrations that travel up and down the shaft. Produced by the firing pulse that twists the shaft as it turns the flywheel.

As the engine speed rises, the natural frequency, of the shaft, will be out of phase with the pulses, so that a twist traveling down the shaft, will meet a twist traveling up the shaft.
Where these pulses meet, the shaft can fatigue to crack. The Harmonic damper moves these torsional vibrations to a frequency speed that is outside the usable range.

The longer the shaft the worse the torsional vibration. The reason that a lot take the drive off the center of the crank.

Quote:
The Subaru H4 could run smoother, theoretically, with an opposing firing order, L-R-L-R -> rather than L-L-R-R-> (EJ firing order is 1-3-2-4), which no EJ engine has; A flat 4 could run smoother than Subaru happens to set them up, if I am understanding it correctly. It would be interesting to see an EJ25 with a 1-4-3-2, or 1-2-3-4 firing order.
You can't fire a flat four any other way, unless it is a two stroke. It would have to have the opposing pistons on the same crank pin to achieve that firing order, and that would give a much greater 'rocking couple'.

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  #29  
Old 02-05-2010, 07:33 PM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

Thanks Harvey, nobody believed me when I said it lol
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  #30  
Old 02-13-2010, 02:02 AM
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Re: Crank Pully Picture

I'm not here to argue or debate about the ill effects of using such madness but this sure does look sexy!



Too bad I can't have a blue pulley for the power steering, a yellow for the alternator and a black for the AC. That would be... colorful I guess.
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