Headers Feeler

[Johnybeas]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Only real issue is where peak torque is desired, The design is effectively the same, the lengths, collectors, and tube diameters are always the variables. There is also the consideration of materials used and their capacity to retain heat. It is not as simple as slapping some pipes together and saying.... well thats worth at least 20 hp

Tom

+1 definitely different worlds with NA and FI general principle is the same but two different directions of flow, with a turbo you're looking for the most efficient flow to your turbo from the exhaust manifold. NA you're looking for most efficient flow out of the car. For this reason the collectors for turbo are typically closer than an NA application.

Also size of pipe used that's best for a turboed 6 cylinder would be too large for a naturally aspirated engine, the extra air used in forced induction needs less restrictions. With NA if the air is given too much space it will loose speed and in turn not make as much power as it should.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by StatGSR

in reality, they should be nothing alike.

But they will be more alike than either version compared to the factory manifolds?

The theory is practically already settled, I guess I'm just not understanding the difficulty in producing 2 different but comparatively similar header tunes.

Turbo cars will need shorter primaries with larger stepping for better fitment and flow to the up-pipe and NA will use longer primaries for more usable torque.

Is there something I'm just not getting or is this an R&D cost issue?

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

But they will be more alike than either version compared to the factory manifolds?

The theory is practically already settled, I guess I'm just not understanding the difficulty in producing 2 different but comparatively similar header tunes.

Turbo cars will need shorter primaries with larger stepping for better fitment and flow to the up-pipe and NA will use longer primaries for more usable torque.

Is there something I'm just not getting or is this an R&D cost issue?

Actually when I made my post I was not thinking about Turbos at all!
I was thinking about belt driven superchargers.

[NikFu S.]

It helps to specify, but to be fair Johnny did earlier post a picture and comment concerning his intended design parameters, which, to me, appeared to be without regards for FI (subsequent posts aside).

Actually when I asked the original question I had also conveniently forgotten about a turbo's relationship with the exhaust, but I'm questioning now how if turbo FI projects are the primary concern, how will an NA or SC tune increase the projects complexity considering they are inherently simpler in design?

In any case I think the true market feel has yet to be adequately gauged, and I think maybe this should be done before too much thought is put into which platform is most convenient.

[LetItSnow]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

I was thinking about belt driven superchargers.

:applause:

Johnny, you've got a good share of work ahead of you. Subaru spits out more Imprezas in a month than they did SVXi in their entire production run. You're chasing a super limited market where many of the modders are also fabricators themselves. I have no interest in sounding discouraging toward the idea of aftermarket support for the SVX, but in asking for R&D funds and with limited exposure of your own product (any?), I have to wonder if you are in over your head?

[Myxalplyx]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

It is not as simple as slapping some pipes together and saying.... well thats worth at least 20 hp

Tom

Odd of you to say this Tom, when this is exactly what you did with an intake you made.

[Nevin]

John, if you want a REALLY GOOD design, you're going to have to get ahold of burnsstainless and have them run a design through their x-design program. It's one of, if not the best on the market.

There is a fee for the design, but if you're willing to make them, it would take a LOT of guesswork out of the design, and guarantee much better performance. I think the fee is typically $75, but they tell you everything you need to make them yourself, and then you can source your own supplies. The list of what you need to provide as far as engine specs is pretty comprehensive, but I'm sure that asking around on here would get you the results you're loking for.

If I was doing this myself, this is the exact route I would take.

Focus on what is going to be most popular. That'll get you $$ rolling in, and give you some capital to play with to expand designs. We're not a huge market, but you have to focus on the most popular things first, then go from there. Very few people have the time, money, or know-how to invest in a turbo system, so get a solid set of all-around performing N/A headers first.

And it's a hard sell, something that is new to our market and untested. You ABSOLUTELY have to get one made for yourself before you even think of selling them to people. You need numbers to back things up on something like this. And playing guessing games won't get you anywhere.

Same thing for me and the swaybars. I didn't even think of selling them until I had run mine through the ringer, and had a second person verify without me breathing over their back.

That said, this CAN be done. There ARE people willing to pay. Do the R&D, and it will pay-off. Pussyfoot around it, and you'll get nowhere fast.

[svxfiles]

Originally Posted by Nevin

John, if you want a REALLY GOOD design, you're going to have to get ahold of burnsstainless and have them run a design through their x-design program. It's one of, if not the best on the market..

Yes, Burns Stainless is the best or at least one of the best in the world, but their collectors are about $300.00
This puts it outside of the reach of most SVXers.

[Nevin]

Originally Posted by svxfiles

Yes, Burns Stainless is the best or at least one of the best in the world, but their collectors are about $300.00
This puts it outside of the reach of most SVXers.

Yeah, their stuff is pricey. But if you have enough ambition to do it yourself, you can make your own collectors and everything else yourself using their dimensions. But then you either pay for it with your own labor, or just buy the parts. And unfortunately like you said, the parts cost so much anyway.

John, you could also try to find some little custom shop that is good with headers, get one made yourself, and then organize a bulk buy AFTER you have favorable results. There are places willing to do this, but the first set is always the most expensive. Not prohibitively so, but the "template set" or whatever you want to call it always costs more, simply because of labor.

Diving straight into making your own would result in a few sets that aren't quite what you want UNLESS you do your homework beforehand.

[Johnybeas]

This thread is just a "feeler" thread. To see what is "popular" and what would sell, what the generic "modder" in the community is looking for. I am currently working on the CAI and will have numbers on that and it will be very professional and will show my standard of excellence.

I do plan to do a set for myself, but if I'm going to waist my time doing an NA set or not is dependent on if there are people who would want this or not. I may just spend my own money doing research into the best way to do the turbo set up.

The CAI will be done with a CNC Mandrel bender so everything will be done to a standard and you will be guaranteed to see the same that my dyno charts show. But, keep in mind we are testing and dynoing at 4K+ ft above sea level. So those of you at sea level will see bigger numbers.

I'm not trying to sell any headers right now. Right now I'm focusing on finishing the CAI's all I had to have was a few people to buy in with good faith to help fund the R&D so that it could be done right the first time.

Depending on how well the CAI's and such do I may not need anyone to help fund the headers if there really is a market. From the sound of it I may be able to get an NA set of headers that are dyno proven to sell quite well.

Once the CAI's are done I may just make myself a set of NA headers. But see the thing is I don't own my own dyno right now so I'll be paying for dyno time to get the results, at a discounted rate yes, but that's still more research cost.

I do however have some new products in the works that will be coming from other manufactures that are already well known and have a good reputation. So keep your eyes peeled for those.

[Nevin]

I realize it was just a feeler thread. But like you said, it certainly helps to have numbers first.

But yes, I'd start with a set of solid performing NA headers, and go from there. Obviously intakes are the place to start though. Keep it up!

[Johnybeas]

Nevin I was thinking of working on a front sway bar and a few other front end items shoot me a pm if you're interested in working together on some suspension stuff.

[Nevin]

Call me selfish, but I typically only work on parts that I'll be wanting myself. And I just can't picture me wanting any more suspension work on my car in the forseeable future. I like the stock ride, all my struts are good, and I don't drive it hard enough or auto-x to want any kind of front sway bar.

Stick with intakes and headers if you're making parts, because those are the ones that will sell!

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Myxalplyx

Odd of you to say this Tom, when this is exactly what you did with an intake you made.

One off design... I never even thought about making another one until you showed me the dyno sheets... Even then, cost was always over demand when you break it down to straight numbers... People can say all they want about them being expensive, simple fact of the matter was I "lost" money on every single one I made. Time is time in a shop and all the time I put into making them was never made up after cost of materials... Simple business is, there is very little you can make that will pay-off to make profit... that is why I closed my doors

Tom

[Johnybeas]

If I decide to do the headers I will probably do a couple different sets. One would be just a regular NA/supercharged performance set, one would be a NA/supercharged drag set, and a turbo set.