Electronic driving aids

[crazyhorse]

Where do we, as drivers of one of the highest order cars, before these "Nannies", stand on these? I'm talking about Drive by wire, Stability control, ECVT's, OnStar, and "black boxes"

Our cars are still raw steel, and rubber controlled. They do just exactly what we tell them to do. Really, the ultimate expression of "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Can electronics decide how we drive? Can they make us better drivers? Or, do they just inspire overconfidence? Car & Driver says of the new BMW M3, that it's a far better car for the electronic aids. Say it ain't so Csaba Csere! (Editor in Chief)

Having learned car control at the Bondurant School, There are times that a loss of traction is desireable! My friend's Maxima steps on my toes when I push it. Even when I'm well inside it's limits.

[Crazy_pilot]

Whenever I go to the track the first thing I do is yank the ABS fuse.

[subeman90]

I'd really like to try out subaru's VDC system. Like to see what it could do for me.

[b3lha]

I don't like any system where the dumbass computer overrides what I am telling the car to do.

I had a scary experience in my Dad's Merc when I touched the brake pedal really gently and the emergency braking system decided to slam the brakes on maximum. Maybe the driver has to learn the limits of the system, but since then I don't like driving that car anymore.

The ABS on my legacy sometimes comes on too early, before the wheels have started to lock up. I think the way the ABS computer works is by comparing the measured deceleration with a limit. If the limit is exceeded the computer assumes lockup. But the limit is too low. The car can actually decelerate more quickly than the programmed limit without lockup. A while ago, one of the brake light bulbs blew and that triggered an ABS error and shut the system down. I really noticed the improvement in the braking with it off.

[Trevor]

Hi Phil,

Yes, I also like to be in FULL and uninhibited control all of the time.

If the Legacy system works as you suspect and has no wheel sensors it must be awful. Alternatively if the wheel sensors are overridden by an inertia device the same applies. Chop, chop, would be my reaction.

Cheers, Trevor.

[Crazy_pilot]

Originally Posted by b3lha

The ABS on my legacy sometimes comes on too early, before the wheels have started to lock up. I think the way the ABS computer works is by comparing the measured deceleration with a limit. If the limit is exceeded the computer assumes lockup. But the limit is too low. The car can actually decelerate more quickly than the programmed limit without lockup. A while ago, one of the brake light bulbs blew and that triggered an ABS error and shut the system down. I really noticed the improvement in the braking with it off.

I don't think this is how ABS works. A car's deceleration rate is to dependant on other conditions, such as tires, and most of all, road conditions. As far as I know, the wheel speed sensors detect a sudden drop in wheel speed and attribute it to wheel lock-up, then the ABS does it's thing.

I always disable my ABS at the track. When I'm pushing the car it will stop much better in snow without ABS. In a skid the front wheels will plow and build snow in front, which slows he car. An ABS stop lets the wheels keep turning and doesnot build and snow in front.

[b3lha]

I am talking about the deceleration of the wheels as measured by the individual wheel sensors. Not the deceleration of the car. I should have made that clear.

I'm not against ABS, it can be really useful. In the time it takes for the driver to think "hey my wheels are locking, I need to back off the brakes", the ABS will already have done it. It means I can be lazy, just hold the pedal down and let the car do the work. But I really do believe that the ABS on my legacy releases the brakes before the tyres are ready to let go.

[crazyhorse]

ABS can be a good tool in the wet. On ice, or gravel however it can actually increase your stopping distances. On glare ice an auto trans car with ABS will never stop It will slow to whatever speed the car naturally idles at, until you take it out of gear. I've owned 3 cars with ABS, and all 3 did this. Just so you don't think I'm trashing one MFG they were a Ford, GM and a Subie.

So what about stability control? Do we need our cars to say "Excuse me sir, but I feel you've carried too much speed into that nasty corner. Let me scrub some of that off for you."

And the black boxes. Do we NEED crash data recorders to tell on us?

I won't go into OnStar's tracking capabilities for fear of sparking a political debate.

[SomethingElse]

Originally Posted by crazyhorse

ABS can be a good tool in the wet. On ice, or gravel however it can actually increase your stopping distances. On glare ice an auto trans car with ABS will never stop It will slow to whatever speed the car naturally idles at, until you take it out of gear. I've owned 3 cars with ABS, and all 3 did this. Just so you don't think I'm trashing one MFG they were a Ford, GM and a Subie.

So what about stability control? Do we need our cars to say "Excuse me sir, but I feel you've carried too much speed into that nasty corner. Let me scrub some of that off for you."

And the black boxes. Do we NEED crash data recorders to tell on us?

I won't go into OnStar's tracking capabilities for fear of sparking a political debate.

ABS would have saved my MX6 from being rear ended and totaled

some of these features CAN really help people, Volvo's collision litigation system, pre-charging the brakes when a collision is eminent can save precious seconds. Its nearly impossible to roll an XC90 over on even ground. New drivers can benefit from traction control, taking sharp turns too fast can cause loss of traction. It can all happen so fast a noob wouldnt know what to do.


I understand both sides thou. During racing, The only time I would want these systems on is when im learning a new car's limits.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by SomethingElse

A

I understand both sides thou. During racing, The only time I would want these systems on is when im learning a new course.

On the basis of my experience, you would learn very little of practical use.

[dcarrb]

You guys need to understand that few people take their cars to a race track, nor do they have the skill and experience to push any car to its limits in a safe and controlled manner. Stability control, ABS and whatnot are designed to assist the average driver, which is to say, most of us.

It's also worth remembering that most every driver on the planet has a way of over-estimating his or her driving ability.

The other day my daughter was telling me of having to disengage the traction/stability control system on her Kia minivan in order to negotiate a muddy, backwoods mountain road. With no wheel spin, she couldn't build any momentum for an uphill grade. Nice touch that it can be switched off.

The biggest problem I see with the increasing load of onboard stuff is the associated cost, both upfront and in repairs. But weigh that against the many thousands of lives saved over the years by safety improvements, going all the way back to padded dashboards and energy-absorbing steering columns and fold-away door handles.

dcb