The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > MOD Mania > Suspension

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 06-24-2005, 04:47 PM
UberRoo's Avatar
UberRoo UberRoo is offline
SVX Appeal
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Posts: 843
The miracle of brazing, or silver soldering is that it's possible to keep the temperature low enough not to anneal the metal.


I'm sorry, you're right about the location of the ball joint. On some cars it's inverted. My mistake.

In this case, it's even easier to modify since the part that you need to modify is somewhat distant from the ball. You could probably weld to it in sort bursts, especially if you cooled it between welds. The only part of the joint that needs to be hardened is the friction surfaces and the neck of the shaft, so as long as you keep the heat away from those parts, you're in business.

Here's an even cooler idea: Find a large nut and turn it down to fit into the ball joint socket on the hub. (I'll call this large nut the 'nut insert'.) Turn down the part of the ball joint that goes into the hub. (I'll call that part the 'ball insert'.) Thread the reduced ball insert to fit the nut insert. Somewhere near the neck of the ball insert drill a very small hole so a piece of safety wire can be installed just in case. Thread a jam nut onto the ball insert and then thread on the nut insert. Now when the assembly is installed, you can adjust the position of the ball joint by loosening the jam nut and threading the ball insert in and out of the nut insert. The only thing better than that is sliced bread.
__________________
1994 LSi, Laguna Blue SVX Appeal
1992 LS-L, Ebony Pearl SVX-Rated
UberLocker
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-24-2005, 04:54 PM
Hocrest's Avatar
Hocrest Hocrest is offline
Freezepop's are Awesome!!!!
Subaru Silver Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittston, PA
Posts: 5,334
Send a message via AIM to Hocrest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
The ball joint need to be located closer to the ground. It has to be the ball joint because this is the lower-outer pivot point of the suspension. Lowering the ball joint changes the slope of the line between the ball joint and the inner control arm mount which in turn raises the roll center and reduces the roll couple.

That makes sense now. I was wondering how lowering the control arm would change anything...
__________________
Dave
- 03 Baja - 92 SVX - 86 Brat - 08 OB 3.0
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-26-2005, 12:13 PM
thundering02's Avatar
thundering02 thundering02 is offline
Giong back to the beaters...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 1,420
Just so you guys know the august(newest) issue of sport compact car has an entire article on this very subject and how to accomplish such means. I dont have a scanner But if you go here www.sportcompactcarweb.com you can find it.
__________________
86 GMC Jimmy Blue and Silver- R.I.P.
87 Integra RS ~228k miles R.I.P.
92 SVX LS-L Perly ~186k R.I.P.
89 240sx se red ~165k miles Gone and unknown
89 240sx se Black~185k R.I.P.
85 Toyota pickup ~205k R.I.P.
85 BMW 325e ~ Gone and unknown
85 Ford Mustang getting engine swap now!
05 Colorado ~108k Daily Driver
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-26-2005, 12:24 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
I think I mentioned that a few times.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-26-2005, 12:59 PM
thundering02's Avatar
thundering02 thundering02 is offline
Giong back to the beaters...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 1,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
I think I mentioned that a few times.
I just re-read this thread and where?
__________________
86 GMC Jimmy Blue and Silver- R.I.P.
87 Integra RS ~228k miles R.I.P.
92 SVX LS-L Perly ~186k R.I.P.
89 240sx se red ~165k miles Gone and unknown
89 240sx se Black~185k R.I.P.
85 Toyota pickup ~205k R.I.P.
85 BMW 325e ~ Gone and unknown
85 Ford Mustang getting engine swap now!
05 Colorado ~108k Daily Driver
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-26-2005, 06:53 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,032
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Watch all the angles.

Mychailo, If you do drop the outer ball joint down, to change the roll center, you will also have to lower the steering arm the same amount.

The lower suport arm and the steering drag link have to remain a parallelogram. This is to avoid bump steer. If it is not done at the same time, the wheel will turn in/out as the suspension moves up/down.

Harvey.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-26-2005, 07:15 PM
thundering02's Avatar
thundering02 thundering02 is offline
Giong back to the beaters...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 1,420
Good call but with that couldn't you just say flipit over or drop the link to the other side(bottom)
__________________
86 GMC Jimmy Blue and Silver- R.I.P.
87 Integra RS ~228k miles R.I.P.
92 SVX LS-L Perly ~186k R.I.P.
89 240sx se red ~165k miles Gone and unknown
89 240sx se Black~185k R.I.P.
85 Toyota pickup ~205k R.I.P.
85 BMW 325e ~ Gone and unknown
85 Ford Mustang getting engine swap now!
05 Colorado ~108k Daily Driver
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-27-2005, 10:59 AM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Quote:
Originally Posted by thundering02
I just re-read this thread and where?
Post #1 and post #13.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-27-2005, 11:00 AM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
Mychailo, If you do drop the outer ball joint down, to change the roll center, you will also have to lower the steering arm the same amount.

The lower suport arm and the steering drag link have to remain a parallelogram. This is to avoid bump steer. If it is not done at the same time, the wheel will turn in/out as the suspension moves up/down.

Harvey.
Yeah, I was thinking about that. I need to look under the car again to see what's possible.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:28 PM
UberRoo's Avatar
UberRoo UberRoo is offline
SVX Appeal
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound, Washington
Posts: 843
Frequently the steering arm and control arm are not quite parallel to begin with. A small amount of bump steer [in the right direction] can be helpful sometimes. I don't know if lowering the ball joint would have a positive or negative effect or if it'd even be noticeable. Certain changes in one place can produce sympathetic changes elsewhere. I wouldn't bet my French fries on it though.
__________________
1994 LSi, Laguna Blue SVX Appeal
1992 LS-L, Ebony Pearl SVX-Rated
UberLocker
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-27-2005, 05:47 PM
Subafreak's Avatar
Subafreak Subafreak is offline
Superbeast
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Central Village Ct.
Posts: 4,330
So in an SVX lowered .5" , a .25" drop of the ball joint would be a good adjustment.......BUT, how about in an SVX lowered 1.5 or 2"? Then would a full 1" drop be a proper adjustment for the ball joint?




Saw the new SCC on the rack yesterday but was to poor to buy it.
__________________
92 SVX #772 140k 6speed, ECU Tune stage II, Koni/Ground control, 3,270lbs.
91 Legacy Turbo 5spd. FMIC, crappy stock turbo, ACT clutch.
78 BRAT (New toy) (Soon to be EJ22T powered)
90 240 SX. RB25 powered!! DRIFT!!!111!!! (GF's car)

To many cars to spend time on teh web!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-28-2005, 04:08 PM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subafreak
So in an SVX lowered .5" , a .25" drop of the ball joint would be a good adjustment.......BUT, how about in an SVX lowered 1.5 or 2"? Then would a full 1" drop be a proper adjustment for the ball joint?




Saw the new SCC on the rack yesterday but was to poor to buy it.
At the OEM ride height, the ball joint is just about at the same height as the control arm pivot point. If you drop the front end by 1.5" and want to not increase the roll couple, I'd guess that the ball joint has to drop about 1-1.25". Probably 1.25". That's enough room to use an adapter that clamps to the ball joint stud and then slips into the pinch clamp on the knuckle. Keep in mind what Harvey said about possibly inducing bump steer by moving the ball joint. It might also be necessary to reposition the steering rod ball joint at the knuckle.

The result of this mod is that there will be less weight transfer to the outside front wheel in a corner. Should make for better grip at the front end during cornering, and the over traction limit of the car should be a little greater with the balance of the car moving more to oversteer at the limit.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-28-2005, 08:03 PM
Subafreak's Avatar
Subafreak Subafreak is offline
Superbeast
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Central Village Ct.
Posts: 4,330
So the ideal position would be to have the control arms strait out? Or a little less than strait out becouse they will be compressing in the corners but you know what I meen.

At what point does role center out way a lower CG? They say that having the control arms pivot to low can hurt more than having a higher CG and a good roll center. I suppose the best of both worlds is to adapt this new mod idea, but just for the people who think they are getting better handleing by slamming the car, are they really not?
__________________
92 SVX #772 140k 6speed, ECU Tune stage II, Koni/Ground control, 3,270lbs.
91 Legacy Turbo 5spd. FMIC, crappy stock turbo, ACT clutch.
78 BRAT (New toy) (Soon to be EJ22T powered)
90 240 SX. RB25 powered!! DRIFT!!!111!!! (GF's car)

To many cars to spend time on teh web!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-29-2005, 08:35 AM
mbtoloczko's Avatar
mbtoloczko mbtoloczko is offline
sans SVX
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 4,250
Send a message via AIM to mbtoloczko
Having the ball joint a bit lower than the control arm pivot is probably the best. The roll center will be closer to the CG, and by having the ball joint a little lower, the front suspension can undergo the maximum amount of camber compensation as the car leans in a corner.

People equate lowering the car with less of a tendency to lean during cornering. Lowering the car will reduce the tendency for the car to "jack up" during cornering because it does drop the roll center. This isn't a big problem though because at stock ride height, the roll center is already only about 2.75" above the ground. Lean is controlled more by the distance between the roll center of the car and the CG of the car. If the car is slammed by say 1.5" at the front, the roll couple (distance between the roll center and the CG) is going to be much larger than before the car was slammed, and the only thing that keeps the car from handling worse than before the car was lowered will be an increase in spring rate. With your GC springs, you could actually drop the car by 1.5", and it will probably handle better than stock. If you changed the drop to 0.5", it would probably handle better though.

For a mild increase in spring rate (such as my strut springs), I wouldn't recommend a 1.5" drop because no matter what is done with the roll center, the car will lean into the bump stops way too soon which also kills handling. For your GC setup dropped 1.5", it would be interesting to see how the car handles with the ball joints lowered.
__________________
Mychailo
:: 2006 Silver Mitsubishi Evolution 9, E85, 34 psi peak, 425wtq/505whp DJ ::
1995 Laguna Blue SVX L AWD 5MT (sold)

Visit my locker

SVX Mods: ND iridium spark plugs, Impreza RS fpr, afr tuned to 13.2:1 using a custom MAF bypass, custom exhaust, WRX 5MT w/ STi RA 1st-4th gear & stock WRX 5th gear, Exedy 13 lb flywheel & Sport Clutch, STi Group N tranny & engine mounts, urethane spacers in rear subframe, rear diff mounts, and pitch stopper, SVX Sport Strut Springs (185f/150r), custom 19 mm rear swaybar, urethane swaybar mounts, Rota Torque 17x8", 225/45-17 Proxes 4 tires, Axxis Deluxe Plus organic brake pads.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-03-2005, 07:04 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,032
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
The effects of 'bump steer'.

The effect that you notice, when the suspension has a bump steer problem, is mainly in a fast tight corner. As you come in to the cornor, you apply the right amount of steering input, and as the car starts to compress the outside suspension the wheel will turn in tighter. So you unwind the steering a bit to keep the line, this then unloads the suspension and the car starts to head for the outside of the corner. Cornering becomes a matter of adjusting the steering input, all the way through the corner. Instead of just holding the right line, from start to finish.

Depending on if the tie-rod is above or below the parallel, and behind or in front of the strut, it will either increase/decrease the steering input. In our case, if the ball joint is lowered, it will steer in tighter.

This is something that took Japan a long time to appreciate. Some of the worst offenders were the sports models, that displayed server steer in. Some were fixed by lowering the rack, others needed the steering arm to be reset.

Harvey.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122