Staggering USGP...

[Mr. Pockets]

Well, I've certainly seen nothing like it, that's for sure.

Shame on Michelin and shame on the teams running (or, as is the case, not running) their tires. You didn't bring appropriate equipment to the race, and instead of playing by the rules and taking the penalties, you pouted and took your cars home.

Shame on all of you.

[SVXphile]

I listened to the "race" and all the commentary, and I still want to hear some more details after the dust settles. There is no doubt that the original problem lies at the feet of Michelin for not having the correct tires or having faulty ones. It is not the first time they have run at Indy; I can't understand why they now have a problem other than (1) the new tire rule and (2) the recent resurfacing of the track. Bridgestone may have profited from the fact that their Firestone tires just completed the 500 and that gave them some feedback on the track changes. Having to run just one set for qualifying and the race may have exposed a design flaw in the Michelins. After two accidents and checking the tires, Michelin declared the tires to be unsafe. For the teams to have gone out and run with them anyway was not an option. Having said that, it seems like several compromises were floated but none were acceptable to all the parties. Ferrari didn't want a chicane and they had a point. Their (Bridgestone) tires were fine on the banking, why should they be penalized for Michelin's mistake? But what amazes me....if I got these facts correct....was that the Michelin teams agreed to NO POINTS if the FIA went with a chicane, and the FIA (Moseley) still said no. The saddest thing is for the fans....many who took their vacations and traveled from other continents to attend, just to watch a Bridgestone tire test. Tony George and the Speedway offered all they could do to solve the problem, but it was out of their hands. Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, and Honda lost TONS of advertising exposure. The teams wanted to race, the drivers wanted to race, but the FIA didn't seem to want to compromise on anything. Politics put ahead of the fans. At the same time, if it were Ferrari and the other two Bridgestone teams that had the problem with their tires, the race would have gone on without them. The fans would have been disappointed, but there would have been a race. So many teams ran Michelins that parking them meant NO real race....just a test session, and guessing who would come in third.
My guess is that this is going to really light the fire under the manufacturers movement to start their own F1 series. FIA may have effectively shot themselves in the foot this time.

Don

[Royal Tiger]

What a rip. If I had paid for those tickets I would have been beyond ticked off. Any F1 elitists that rip NASCAR now should look in a mirror. I was actually upset I missed it because I had to work. Now I'm glad I didn't take time off to see it.

[Chiketkd]

I watched the race from start to finish. While I was dissapointed with the race only having 6 cars, I was utterly disgusted by the people who were throwing beer cans, water bottles and other items onto the track!

My hat goes off to Schumacher and Barrichelo for the professional way they handled themselves after all was said and done.

-Chike

[SVXphile]

The one thing about Nascar...

....they put the fans first.

The most recent example is the "Green-white-checker" plan to make sure that
caution flags near the end of the race don't cause the race to end under the yellow, and the fans get to see a race to the finish. The FIA (and others) obviously don't place the fans that high in importance, or think that that is someone else's problem.

Don

[SVXphile]

I agree Chike, the bottle and can display was more like Nascar than F1....although it was nothing compared to Gordon beating Jr. under the yellow last year and the "junkyard" that came over the fence on that one! The difference is that that was when a race was OVER and this was while the "race" was still going. One of the Ferraris ran over a bottle....what if that had led to a tire failure on the banking and sent the driver to the hospital...or worse? The Ferrari drivers handled the podium deal very professionally and were obviously embarassed about he whole thing.

Still, many fans stuck around and showed good behavior while being quite VOCAL about their displeasure, or wanting refunds. We have seen from European and South American sporting events, that their fans can go ballistic to degrees that put our bad boys to shame. I hope I never see that degree of crowd reaction over here.

Don

P.S. Here is the BBC's take on things...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/4109604.stm

[Mr. Pockets]

Guys, why the hell does this have to become a NASCAR vs F1 thread? This issue is complicated enough without dragging something else in and saying 'see, NASCAR is so much bettAr!'

Cripes, man...thanks for the hijack.

This 'elitist' is tired and going to bed.

[Weebitob]

Here were the letters (one page) exchanged (another) between the FIA and Michelin, this is from the FIA's website so they could have change around a couple of words they said in contrast to what they might have said to Michelin, but then again who knows (at least when it comes to people here).

[subeman90]

My dad took off work and drove out with friends in a camper. Feel free to mapquest 17501 to indy. Needless to say he sounded a little pi$$ed on the phone last night when he called to tell me to tape Windtunnel (good discussion on there last night) Me personally I could care less but for everyone who went I feel bad for them (the fans).

I think Nascar will increase in popularity....

[Royal Tiger]

The point was NASCAR is flexible in trying to keep the racing competitive and enjoyable for the FANS. FIA is not, and ol Bernie is a moron who talks out of the wrong hole. He needs to go. The US is Ferrari's number one market. I'd assume BMW and Mercedes consider here to be as important as well since I didn't see thier sales numbers. Blame the french. It's always easy and fun to do, and since Michelen is french, don't buy thier crappy tires anyway. Subaru's WRC car uses Pirelli.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

The point was NASCAR is flexible in trying to keep the racing competitive and enjoyable for the FANS. FIA is not, and ol Bernie is a moron who talks out of the wrong hole. He needs to go. The US is Ferrari's number one market. I'd assume BMW and Mercedes consider here to be as important as well since I didn't see thier sales numbers. Blame the french. It's always easy and fun to do, and since Michelen is french, don't buy thier crappy tires anyway. Subaru's WRC car uses Pirelli.

You confuse Bernie with somebody who has the power to adjust the rules. Bernie is not part of the FIA. If you don't know how it works, don't criticize it so specifcally. I don't like NASCAR because the show itself bores me. But since I don't know how it works, I'm hardly going to say, 'they should do this,' or 'they should do that.' I just won't watch it.

Again, I don't see why this has to be a NASCAR vs F1 thread.

At any rate, I agree with the FIA's stance. I don't think they should bend the rules for 'the fans.' They didn't want to penalize the Bridgestone teams because Michelin brought the wrong equipment. I find that hard to disagree with - it wasn't Bridgestone's problem. I don't want the rules changed just for me. That's BS. Do I want a good race? Of course. But what I don't want is lingering questions about how the race would have been different if the FIA hadn't adjusted the rules because some teams weren't properly prepared for the event. In my opinion, that would have been much more of a 'farce' than what did happen.

This all distracts (as Michelin and their partner teams would like very much) from the core issue: those teams could have made at least two other decisions, independent of the FIA.

One, they could have raced on the tires they brought, avoiding the situations they thought were so dangerous. This could have been done two ways: decreased speed through turn 13 (which the FIA offered to regulate for them) or avoiding turn 13 altogether and driving through the pit lane every lap. It would have meant they were far slower than the Bridgestone teams, but the fastest of them would have still scored points. I admit that the second alternative is not that attractive. But either one would have been better for 'the fans,' and Michelin (and their teams) chose their boycott instead.

Two, they could have changed to the 'Barcelona' tires that they brought over night. They would have been penalized heavily, but they would have been 'safe' and the fastest of them would have scored points.

Michelin and their partner teams don't mention any of this in their statements. Instead, they try to pin the blame on the FIA, who is not responsible for Michelin's mistakes.

The idea that anybody should have compromised and penalized Bridgestone and their teams because Michelin screwed up is ridiculous - regardless of whether it made for a better show or not. Why would you bother to have rules at all, if you would do something like that?

[SVXphile]

This is NOT a F1 vs. Nascar thread!!! Look downstream from this message and read again. Nascar was ONLY mentioned due to its association with its fan base, and the very rare example of an occasional "container" clearing a fence.

Can we discuss Subaru with no reference at all to any other car?
Can we discuss one kind of video game with no reference to another type/brand?

I'm sorry that the word "Nascar" sends people into fits of frenzy, but that is the way life is.

Now back to the topic that we never really left.....

--------------------------

I mentioned in my earlier post that there was no fault on the part of Bridgestone and Ferrari and they should not have to accept anything
detrimental to their cause. Could someone have proposed everyone get a few more gallons of gas and do a few practice laps with a chicane in place, and offer the Michelin teams half the usual points for placing? Peter Windsor mentioned something similar I think. Ferrari certainly didn't want to compromise since Michelin's mistake was causing their competition major heartburn and was handing them a golden opportunity to move back into the points battle. A caller to WindTunnel mentioned what I had touched on earlier, but with a different angle....that the manufacturers might have decided to USE this fiasco to promote their proposal for a separate race series. Make the FIA look bad....shift the blame to them (Michelin who?) and see what happens. Wheither this was done intentionally, or the FIA just has this natural tendency to come off looking like of bunch of stuffed shirts, I don't know. As Windsor said, the fallout from this will be felt for a long time and it will be interesting to see what happens in the short term.

Here is a thought. Many want just one manufacturer for tires in F1. What if that supplier....the only supplier....had been Michelin? What, if anything, would have been different at Indy?

F1 is not run or managed like racing here in the states. The reasons it has struggled in an American market has been discussed on various threads over and over and we all know the facts and reasons. My sister lives in Indy and the city was over the top promoting this race. Peter Windsor said the reception and planning was exceptional. Bernie said that the race was "not promoted very well"? Horsehockey.. ...if he didn't spend his time jetting in and out he might have noticed how the media in Indy played this race up big time. Perhaps Bernie made that statement, as Windsor said, because contract negotiations with the Speedway were coming up? And that really brings me to the core of this entire problem, and it applies to any racing series...INCLUDING NASCAR....where does the governing body place the emphasis, on the sport and the fans....or on the corportation/business side of racing. Both must be catered to at the same time, and how well it is DONE determines the success of the series. F1 has some work to do.

Don

[SVXphile]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/s...=f1&id=2090441

and read the messageboards on this site

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/default.stm

and especially...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/4110170.stm

Don

[Weebitob]

It is quite pathetic they never came to a compromise, it is as if they might as well shouldn't of nagotiated at all and canceled the race. Bravo though on the drivers' and teams' part for putting on a happy face.

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

It's always easy and fun to do, and since Michelen is french, don't buy thier crappy tires anyway.

Does that mean you are gonna start to boycott BFGoodrich too? I am currently using Traction T/A Vs on the SVX.

Which brings me to one other thing, I wonder if Michelin ever collaborates with their subsidiaries at all, namely BFGoodrich, when it comes to engineering their racing tires? And if not they should either do so right now and announce it. Or a better idea would actually be Michelin saving face in the US by pulling their tire out of the racing brackets and replacing it with BFG, even if it means using Miches under BFG's name. Michelin would be, like I said before, saving face and BFG would be back in the professional racing circle, at least in the US. Whos with me?

[Andy]

I believe that this statement sums up the situation perfectly.

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html