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  #31  
Old 11-09-2004, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lee
Shadow, can you provide any sort of reference for the assertion of lawsuits for a church displaying a manger scene? I admit this is a bizarre scenario, but also have to say I have never heard of such a thing.
Everything I have in my possession is in print...I will run a quick search to see what I can find online.


Quote:
Originally posted by lee
As to the second point, did you know that for a period in the US an atheist could not file a lawsuit or testify in court, even for themselves (a fairly serious denial of justice) because a swearing on the Bible would have no coercion for them. Anyway, lets say I find the 10 Commandments abhorrent (actually I could care less) and said so in earshot of the judge who had the plaque posted - do you honestly think I'd get a fair shake at trial?
Again I must clarify that I do not believe that everyone should be a christian. I do not have a problem with people choosing not to believe in God. That's their problem, not mine. If they wish to just cease to exist when they die, great. Your belief is your choice. My problem lies in cases where people try to deny me my religious rights by having symbols of christianity banned...and it's not even a problem to me in situations where their rights REALLY ARE being denied...for example, if you have a problem with christian activists protesting an abortion clinic...then I side with you. That IS "having religion forced" on you. However, the simple display of the ten commandments or statues of religious figures...give me a break. Talk about picking a fight. You got a problem with it? DON'T LOOK AT IT!!!!


Quote:
Originally posted by lee
I'd like to conclude that perhaps you should research the roles that Thomas Paine and Mr Jefferson had in the Nation's founding principles. For example in 1787 11 of the 13 states had religious tests in order to hold office, but carefully read Article VI of the Constitution (especially clauses 2 & 3).
Article VI clause 1 deals with past contracts, clause 2 with uniformity among state courts and clause 3 deals with religion being a part of employment requirements.

I have no argument against the idea that religion should not be a factor in hiring...or trying someone in court. The simple fact that the ten commandments are displayed in a courtroom does not constitute anything that the constitution forbids. Again, they are simply words (especially if you are a non-believer)...if you don't like the name of the courthouse, does that mean you have a right to sue the state to get the name removed?


Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
A glint isn't a human interpretation of light. it's caused by a surface that's more reflective than another surface.
A glint IS in fact a human interpretation. Butterflys, for instance, do not see color...they see texture...and therefore cannot detect a glint. Actually very few beings other than humans would be able to detect and discern such a reflection. Thus the reason it defies science. If only humans know what it is, how did it get on a butterfly?


Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Who created your creator?
Here's another great comment. Non-believers always rely on science, but very few of them know all that much about it. Have you studied fractal geometry? Quantum physics and string theory? My point...all these areas of science are vastly uncharted. Fractal geometry deals with infinitely large shapes...shapes that, in reality, cannot possibly have a defined volume in our frame of reference. Yet many of our devised methods claim there is an "exact" volume for most of these shapes. Why? Because these things are beyond our comprehension. The human mind cannot comprehend the concept of inifinty. Think about it...can you picture a string that doesn't end (the entire thing)? Of course not. Yet our scientific methods claim that we should be able to grasp these concepts. It's a glitch, an imperfection in the scientific method. My point again, is that there is alot out there that we have yet to discover and understand. Science, essentially, is the study of the world around us. It does not DEFINE the world around us.

So many people picture God as some old man living on some cloud. God is not a man, God is not a being. What God is exactly, is something that the human mind cannot comprehend. We put a human face to him in an attempt to understand what we can't understand. God is the creator, who needed no creation.
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2004, 10:05 PM
BoondockSVX
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You claim that the human mind cannot comprehend god, correct? Yet you're defining 'god' in your very own paragraph. Christians always say god is so immense we cannot possibly understand him, yet they always say "oh it's because god wanted to" or "Oh it's just God's way" or "It's in god's plan". Heck, they have a few books dedicated to EXPLAINING god.

I see hypocrisy here.

- Jim

PS: I don't think that any sane person would consider 'the removal of religious symbols/text from state/federal buildings' in the same ballpark as 'denying you your religous rights'. As for banning symbols of your religion, GET USED TO IT. IT"S THE LAW. The law here is FREEDOM of religion, and state/federal buildings CANNOT have religious crap laying around. It isn't right. This country was based on christian principles (which is kinda funny, because basically all the 'good parts' of the bible that everybody agrees on are usually common in all the other religions), but it was also designed to AVOID the mixing of church and state. Here in America, we have no national religion, or even language for that matter. That's what makes it so great! We are truly the melting pot, and with so many different cultures, religions and people all in one spot we've become the most productive, powerful, and innovative nation in the world, along with the highest standard of living. If you had things YOUR way, I'm sure we'd have crosses all over the place, religious text on our parking tickets, and 100% christian rock radio.

No thank ye.
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  #33  
Old 11-09-2004, 10:25 PM
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Thread for Shadow about a higher power

quote:

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately.


But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favor of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist position.


This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe, what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just "is" (or "was").


From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.


The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the universe too must have a creator.


The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.


Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a different part of creation (or a different universe, if you allow the possibility that there might be more than one).


Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent.


Apart from logical inconsistencies in the watchmaker argument, it's worth pointing out that biological systems and mechanical systems behave very differently. What's unlikely for a pile of gears is not necessarily unlikely for a mixture of biological molecules.
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  #34  
Old 11-09-2004, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
You claim that the human mind cannot comprehend god, correct?
Correct.


Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Yet you're defining 'god' in your very own paragraph.
Nowhere did I define God. I made a bunch of generalizations to try to get my point across.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Christians always say god is so immense we cannot possibly understand him, yet they always say "oh it's because god wanted to" or "Oh it's just God's way" or "It's in god's plan". Heck, they have a few books dedicated to EXPLAINING god.
You really haven't said anything here.

We can explain that we can't understand him. Saying "it's just God's way" is not understanding him. It's accepting him.

There are no books that "explain" God. That's ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
PS: I don't think that any sane person would consider 'the removal of religious symbols/text from state/federal buildings' in the same ballpark as 'denying you your religous rights'.
According to an atheist, having a religious symbol in a state building would be denying that person's rights ("forcing christianity on them). Therefore, NOT having it must be denying my rights, because that would be "forcing atheism on me".

Again you try to claim that there is such thing as a person with NO religion. That is simply not true.


Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
As for banning symbols of your religion, GET USED TO IT. IT"S THE LAW.
Wrong. It is most certainly NOT the law. You said it yourself here:

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
The law here is FREEDOM of religion...
Which means no one religion is more important than another. Atheism does not take precedence over christianity...etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
...but it was also designed to AVOID the mixing of church and state.
Correct...then why do people use the courts to try to tell churches what to do? THAT is mixing church and state.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
If you had things YOUR way, I'm sure we'd have crosses all over the place, religious text on our parking tickets, and 100% christian rock radio.
Don't even start with this BS. I've already said many times I have no problem with other religions. You can do whatever you want, and even if I was King of America, I wouldn't change that. Besides, I don't listen to christian music.

PS...if I had things my way, there would be no parking tickets.
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  #35  
Old 11-09-2004, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
Nowhere did I define God. I made a bunch of generalizations to try to get my point across.
So wait, you claim that God is SO complex (but was never ever created, God has always just existed, and you're okay with god having always existed, you just can NOT accept that the universe might have always existed) that humans cannot possibly begin to fathom the SLIGHTEST amount of the true nature of "god", yet you're able to make generalizations about God? Surely if god was so incredibly mind-blowingly complex it would be extremely difficult to make a generalization right?


Quote:
You really haven't said anything here.

We can explain that we can't understand him. Saying "it's just God's way" is not understanding him. It's accepting him.

There are no books that "explain" God. That's ridiculous.
Actually I have. If you choose to ignore it, that is your own free will (or wait, did God make you ignore it?). What I pointed out was that on one hand, Christians say God is so complex we're akin to an ant describing quantum physics.... but on the other hand, HUMANS have written 2 books about the christian god which explains God's reasoning for doing things, what god likes/dislikes, and how god goes about doing things. So which is it? Impossible to understand? Or within the reach of us lowly humans ? (and if 'we' wrote books about it, it surely must be able to be understood)

Quote:
According to an atheist, having a religious symbol in a state building would be denying that person's rights ("forcing christianity on them).
Wrong. According to anybody who believes in what America was designed to be: A nation that does NOT mix religion and politics. Here are some quotes from our forefathers to help remind you:

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

All of these men designed this country so that Religion would NOT be allowed to be intertwined with the government. Do you consider yourself smarter than any of these men? Do you consider your opinion to be better than theirs? Do you think that your opinion would better serve the country?

Quote:
Therefore, NOT having it must be denying my rights, because that would be "forcing atheism on me".
Uh... even a 2nd grader could point out the logical fallacy in this one. You've just stated a double negative. So basically, what you just said is "Therefore, having it must be my right!", when clearly, CLEARLY, it is not your right to have your religion or religious objects displayed all over state and federal buildings.

Quote:
Again you try to claim that there is such thing as a person with NO religion. That is simply not true.
Religion requires the belief in a higher power/ supernatural power. Some people do not believe in either... HENCE, they are not religious. You're confusing religion with morals and ethics, my friend.

Quote:
PS...if I had things my way, there would be no parking tickets.
Well there's something we can agree on. Meter maids are the first to go when the revolution comes. :P

- Jim
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  #36  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:18 AM
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Intricateness in anything is not necessarily a hardline factor of it's being apparently woven as opposed to being randomly constructed by natural forces.

My problem has always been discerning whether one is meant to separate said forces and natural phenomena from divine/spiritually driven machinations.

Humankind increases it's ability to astound, as well as confound itself as progress answers questions noone asked and age-old questions remain mystery. It further separates itself from the mystery, cloaking it in the wonderful answers of science.

What I say is, some people look at a cell, and see the very accidental combobulation of life.
Some people see the very creation of purpose.
Others see a cell.

Be it random chemical and molecular bonding or precisely woven patterns, it's there as you see it before you.


My argument has always been to think of the unthinkable. Imagine literally if nothing were to exist.
Now that would be impossible.
The only alternative is possibility.
Existence.
The question of existence is purpose.
Discover the purpose of a thing's existence, and you will thereby be able to unravel it's intricate meaning, and feel no need to ponder ones own artificiality.
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  #37  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:20 AM
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  #38  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
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^ ZEN.

ednote: Nothing is as chaotic as appears. Ones understanding is merely unorganized, rendering the event only apparently dischordous.
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  #39  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:31 AM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
So wait, you claim that God is SO complex (but was never ever created, God has always just existed, and you're okay with god having always existed, you just can NOT accept that the universe might have always existed) that humans cannot possibly begin to fathom the SLIGHTEST amount of the true nature of "god", yet you're able to make generalizations about God? Surely if god was so incredibly mind-blowingly complex it would be extremely difficult to make a generalization right?[
You're pretty much making my point for me here. This is the third time you have failed to understand what I am saying when I say we cannot fully understand God. I'll try it again, yet another way. Humans are limited to fully understanding only what we know. We have never met an all-powerful all-knowing being...therefore we don't really know what one would be like. We can say what he wants for us, because he's given us plenty of references, but we can't really say what he is really like, how he looks, how long he has been around, what things were like before him, or if there even was a "before him"...etc.

See? It is extremely difficult to make generalizations about God.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
What I pointed out was that on one hand, Christians say God is so complex we're akin to an ant describing quantum physics.... but on the other hand, HUMANS have written 2 books about the christian god which explains God's reasoning for doing things, what god likes/dislikes, and how god goes about doing things. So which is it? Impossible to understand? Or within the reach of us lowly humans ? (and if 'we' wrote books about it, it surely must be able to be understood)
Again, your assuming that just because we've written about something, that means we fully understand it. Hundreds of books have been written about black holes....describing what they look like, how they work, and what is on the other side. Yet we largely have no clue what a black hole really is. just because we don't really understand it, doesn't mean we can't talk about it. We can try.

You're just taking my words a bit farther than they were meant to go.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Wrong. According to anybody who believes in what America was designed to be: A nation that does NOT mix religion and politics. Here are some quotes from our forefathers to help remind you...

...All of these men designed this country so that Religion would NOT be allowed to be intertwined with the government.
So here is the dilemma then. Since, in the legal definition of the word, there is no such thing as a person with no religion, how do you decide which one takes precedence? Are public buildings just supposed to not even mention christmas when it comes along? Putting out a manger scene is denying atheists their rights, whereas putting out santa claus, reindeer and a tree, is denying a christian their rights. So what, ever knowledgeable sir, are we supposed to do? Do you really want to turn this country into a watered-down super PC land full of trial lawyers? It sounds like that would make you happy.

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Uh... even a 2nd grader could point out the logical fallacy in this one. You've just stated a double negative. So basically, what you just said is "Therefore, having it must be my right!", when clearly, CLEARLY, it is not your right to have your religion or religious objects displayed all over state and federal buildings.
Well you are certainly at or above the second grade level then, because you're right. Having it IS my right. Atheists claim that it is their right to have their symbols of their beliefs in public places (i.e. santa claus) but it is not within a christian's rights to have their symbols in public places. CLEARLY you should be able to see that this truly is "freedom of religion".

Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Religion requires the belief in a higher power/ supernatural power. Some people do not believe in either... HENCE, they are not religious. You're confusing religion with morals and ethics, my friend.
Wrong. I am speaking ONLY in the legal definition of religion, which does not include the believe in supernatural powers (because of the separation of church and state, the government cannot acknowledge the idea of supernatural powers, therefore a legal definition CANNOT include such concept). See how it works? Some people just don't realize the full ramifications of their actions and beliefs.
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  #40  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
We have never met an all-powerful all-knowing being...therefore we don't really know what one would be like.
Now I've never really read the whole Bible, and I never really plan too. But I know that in several of the stories, God does speak to and appear in front of (even if in the form of say a burning bush cough....marijuana....cough). Do you not get a sense of what a person is like by speaking to them?

On the issue of everyone has a religion, I would like everyone to please send donations to support the Church of Steve...and please kill a meter maid in my name.
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  #41  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:53 AM
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Boondock's posts always include quotes from ultra-smart-science-based humans. If I were to post quotes from holy men (the ultra-smart-religion based humans), i'd get laughed at. I don't care what a bunch of science and political geeks had to say about religion. That tells us nothing but their opinion on it.

That whole comment goes through all kinds of trouble to try to disprove the "creator" argument. Then it belittles it's own purpose by saying essentially "I can explain this, but I can't explain that". Great job.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nikfu S.
My argument has always been to think of the unthinkable. Imagine literally if nothing were to exist.
Now that would be impossible.
The only alternative is possibility.
Existence.
The question of existence is purpose.
Discover the purpose of a thing's existence, and you will thereby be able to unravel it's intricate meaning, and feel no need to ponder ones own artificiality.
This is a perfect argument for me to start with. He says to imagine what it would be like to not exist. Or for nothing to exist. The human mind cannot comprehend this concept. It's fun to try, sure, but you just can't do it because you have no reference point. Few people would argue against this. Yet lots of people, even here, would argue that since we cannot comprehend God, then he/she/it must not exist. Since the idea seems so far fetched (even as the idea of non-existence sounds far-fetched) it must not be possible. And on top of that, those people ignore the obviousness that the idea of everything just coming together just right at just the right time to create life as we know it is a hundred times more impossible.
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  #42  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Burgundy Beast
Do you not get a sense of what a person is like by speaking to them?
Exactly...a sense. Yes.

However we do not fully understand them.
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  #43  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:09 AM
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And on top of that, those people ignore the obviousness that the idea of everything just coming together just right at just the right time to create life as we know it is a hundred times more impossible. [/B][/QUOTE]



Seems to me that everything DID come together at just the right time to create "life". The question is whodunnit.

Ron.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:17 AM
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i'll solve this for you - I am your god.

here's a puzzle: read the Bible and try to explain the dinosaurs.
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:28 AM
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