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Old 06-08-2012, 07:01 PM
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Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

We figured that bits of what I have been working on are scattered around a bunch of different threads so it would be best to put it all in to one thread to explain were this is heading.

THE GOAL
DEVELOP A EG3.3 NA ENGINE CAPABLE OF RED LINING AT 10,000 DEVELOPING MAXIUM POWER POSSIABLE FROM THIS TYPE ENGINE

Okay Harvey and I have been talking about this in the backgroud working out a plan to enable this to be acheived. Matt has also contributed by his real world experiance. The arrival of Bazza to the forum brings a wealth of knowledge that we are picking up on. Also it would be dismiss of me to not point out that our ideas are ones that you have all contributed to. This plan is not about setting the world on fire all at one time, that doesn't work. Its about taking a number of small sets that each has there own completion and the end of them. So here is the plan. We may move the order around and add things, for want of a better expression this list is the ROAD MAP to the end. We will add to a file that will detail the best way to do each stage.


1:- Cooling.

2:- Bearing Failure.

3:- Change ECU.

4:- Increased Compression.

5:- Valve Lift & Springs.

6:- Cams & Torqure curves.

7:- Intake & Exhaust Systems.

8:- Cams Again


Things like "Which Rods" & "Which Pistons" will fall into place when & if the standard ones fail. The ECU had to be up the front as the standard ECU won't run up to 10,000rpm

We will appricate everyones suggestions and contirbutions but I need to say up front as its Harvey & my project if we don't take up a suggestion some one makes its just because we need to stay focused on the direction we want to go. That doesn't mean that you imput or suggestions won't be revisited at a later stage of development

I want to quote a saying we have at work,

"There is no such thing as sucess with out failure,
Failure is the foundation of success"



Okay team so there it is. We can put more meat on the bone over the coming months. Also if the thread goes dead for a while its just I will be in my silly season at work.

Have a grat day and lets all have some fun.

Tony
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1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.

Last edited by Dessertrunner; 06-09-2012 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:21 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's

Tom
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:21 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Tony,
May I ask why you want to spin your SVX, 3.3 engine to 10,000 RPM?
What is your goal?
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:21 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Tom, to put it straight. The engine will be capable of spinning to 10000 without failing.
In the application that it will be used, 8500 usable rpms.

Harvey.
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:41 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's

Tom
I have been wondering this exact thing lately. I have no idea even remotely how to go about doing this though.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:48 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Hi Guys,
Great input,

Quote:
My first step would be to re-engineer the timing config... Stock belts/pullies are not going to keep in time at those r's
- Tom thats a good point and worth checking. I seem to recall from doing the dyno belt that I can get a belt calculator to work out if it will last. As for the idlers all bears have speed and static & dynamic load tables so I will check those as well. At the end of the day we only want the parts to stay together for 1,000,s of miles not 100,000 miles.
It needs to be check. Anyone got the ability to do this?

Quote:
Tony,
May I ask why you want to spin your SVX, 3.3 engine to 10,000 RPM?
What is your goal?
- Funny Havey asked the same question, I think he said "Tony I am at a loss at what you are trying to acheive". My answer was Matt, Bazza & Jack all had bearing issues if I can get a motor to run at 10,000rpm with out doing bearings then when I pull it back to run at 8,500 as Harvey said it should never fail. Harvey suggested a couple of years back that the back of the engine is not getting enough oil and may need mods so we need to find out.
- The second point as to why 10k? Is that with NA engines the abolsulate best volumetric efficency we will get is 130% and that maybe impossiable. So the only other way is to increase rev. If we want power revs have to go up. Every time the plug fires its more power.


Okay from the discussion Jobs that need answers,
2a Will the timing belt and pullies stand the rev and if so what revs will they stand?
2b From the other posting Can we have the oil tank in the boot?


So these job will be live untill we can answer them with certainty. In the case of the belts the design parmeter need to be check.

Thanks for the input and lets have some fun.

Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:29 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

bearings fail more or less because of oil conditions. You would have to really look into volume. Have you thought about how much flow tge eg33 circuit can flow? The oil jackets eally are nott very large not to mention a custom crank with oversized bores would be a must.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:08 AM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
bearings fail more or less because of oil conditions. You would have to really look into volume. Have you thought about how much flow tge eg33 circuit can flow? The oil jackets eally are nott very large not to mention a custom crank with oversized bores would be a must.
Don't forget that Frank Aragona told me and Jack that the stock crank was very reliable until about 9500 rpms. Then they failed repeatedly. So he went the billet route to spin 10,500 reliably.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

How about having an engine dyno set up to do instrumented runs once you've got a "mule" to ride? This would be worked with the ECU selection task, as the ECU selected will integrate into the engine dyno.

Using a chassis dyno really isn't going to be realistic, given the thought out roadmap that will guide progress.

I agree with YT's comment on needing to look closely at the oil passages (especially in light of Bob's input on repeated failures of the crank at 9.5k rpms!!)

Bill
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Tom We do need base oil flow data. In other word operational temp what pressue for each 1,000 rpm. In that way we can say yes or no if the oil will be enough. I will try to get that data today.

Bob do you know if Frank ran a dry sump or not. Good info on crank, I need to bust a couple and confirm it. If I am correct Frank would have developed a lot more power then us. Crank break and rev relationship would also be related to power developed. We need to check this to confirm.

Bill you are right on the money, I will use my engine dyno and set it up to run the test. Measure all the info and log it the learn from that. Just need to extend the find a place to put it at my house. I will fit a stepper motor to the throttl so we can run real track simlations, just no gear change.

Don't forget we want things to fail, we need to break cranks and do bearing so we can learn what doesn't work.

Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.

Last edited by Dessertrunner; 06-09-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:48 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Checked out,
Point 2a and so far the idlers are good for 12,000 rpm long term which means they will be more then happen short term. By the way the dia of the idlers is the same as the crank pulley there for the revs will be the same.
Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:48 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

I see a oil problem that would explain Matt and Bazza's bearing failure. Also Harvey has been arguing that the back bearings are being starved. YT point about looking into this closer is correct.

I have just reread the standard oil pump flow data and conclude Harvey is 100% right (this time,). When you check the pump specs at 5,000rpm it pumps 56Lpm but its only at 43psi keep in mind that the blow off valve is set at 85psi. That is bad news if you image that the system is call for oil but there is not enough to go around then it will go to the place of least resistance "WHICH IS NOT THE BACK OF THE ENGINE" in other words dead bearing.

I fully appricate that oil pressure over revs is not a linear relationship but you would have to rev the motor to 8,800 to blow off the pressure valve. The other point worth keeping in mind is that the friction of oil is far greater then water so pressure loss getting oil to the back bearings could be as 20psi which means the back bearing would well and truely be starving.
Tony
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

So, this points to the next thing to consider, and that is how many locations on the "mule" you can accurately instrument. For instance, how many places in the oil pressure subsystem can you get to besides where the oil pressure gauge currently resides? Ditto for water temp and overall engine thermal state (thermocouples).

Bill
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:43 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

My guess is we can't pressure test in the different spots due to crank spinning. What we can do is remove bearings and hook up oil pump take pressure up to 85 psi and then measure how much oil is dripping form each journal. This will backwards tell us the amount of friction relationship to each bearing.
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1995 - SVX 700,000 K Mine, DMS Struts to lift car 2in. Tyres Wrangler Silent Armor 235/70R16, PBR Radiator. 6 speed with DCCD and R180 rer diff, Heavy duty top strut mounts front and rear. Speedo correction box fitted. New stero (gave up on the old one). Back seat removed and 2 spare tyres fitted for desert driving. ECUTune SC sitting in the box for the next SVX.
1992 - SVX 255 K Wife (Want to stay Married so not allowed to fit SC)
1992 - SVX Pearl with black roof race car roll cauge etc ready to race. Ex Tasman Targa car.
1995 - SVX Green low k mint condiation.
1995 - SVX Rally car, ex Matts car. Now to be used on track.
1992 - SVX red & Black being converted to Mid Engine.
1995 - SVX Red 143,000 bit rough.
Owned 5 others Subaru back to a 1974 1400 GSR.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:47 PM
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Re: Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
Don't forget that Frank Aragona told me and Jack that the stock crank was very reliable until about 9500 rpms. Then they failed repeatedly. So he went the billet route to spin 10,500 reliably.
OK,
If the stock crankshaft is good to, say, 9,400RPM,
and you want a reliable 8,500 RPM,
then we need lighter/stronger connecting rods and bolts,
lighter/stronger pistons and,
lighter/stronger piston pins
to lessen the rapidly rising kenetic forces.

I know that our stock piston/pin w/rings (1#, 6.4oz)
and rod (1#,58oz)
weigh 2#, 12.2 oz EACH!(or 1250-1260kg)
I remember that the CP pistons/pins and Eagle rods weighed alot less.
And we (if our pockets are deep enough) can buy them.

Next we come to the valves/springs/keepers/retainers, as far as weight being an issue.
Are titanium valves/springs(?)/retainers/keepers available?
If we cut the weight of all of these things in half, then you should be able to raise the RPM limit by a pretty big margin.
(IMHO)
Tom
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