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  #1  
Old 10-30-2006, 08:19 AM
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Online petition against speed cameras

For UK residents only. Appears to be above board.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ukscamgo/petition.html

Not that it will do any good.
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  #2  
Old 10-30-2006, 09:25 AM
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how exactly do these speed cameras cause deaths?
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2006, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky512345
how exactly do these speed cameras cause deaths?
do tell...
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2006, 11:15 PM
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My vote goes to anything that gets rid of big brother. I'd sign that petition if I was in the UK.
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2006, 02:48 AM
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This website explains it better than I can:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pr132.html
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html

Essentially, the number of fatal accidents on British roads had been falling at a rate of about 5% every year since the 1950's. This is due to a number of factors including safety improvements to vehicles and better road engineering. Then in around 1993, when speed cameras were introduced the decline in fatal accidents stopped, and more recently has started to rise.

One of the problems with speed cameras is that when drivers see a speed camera, their natural instinct is to hit the brakes then look at their speedo, even if they weren't over the limit. When that happens, the driver behind has to hit their brakes too, and then the driver behind them. If somebody a few cars back isn't paying enough attention then you end up with a rear-end shunt.

There is a speed camera outside my house in a 40 zone that most drivers would reasonably expect be a 60 zone. Almost every day I see drivers lock up and a skid as they try to slow down for the camera. One particularly memorable evening, we heard screaming outside. A motorcyclist had braked suddenly because of the camera and a girl who was riding pillion, had fallen off the back of the bike and slid along the road. She was in a real mess, but fortunately our neighbour is a nurse and looked after her until the ambulance arrived. We never heard whether she recovered or not. The point is that this serious accident that would not have happened if the speed camera had not been there.

The speed camera policy in Britain is nothing more than a money making scam.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/...&icc=NEWS&ct=5

Without wishing to hijack my own thread, Manarius is quite right about the "big brother" thing too. The latest "safety cameras" that are being installed around the country read the number plate of every passing car and this is stored in a computer database. The plan is to track and record all vehicle movements and retain the data for several years. It's not going to stop with cars. There are plans to introduce compulsory identity cards containing RFID chips that can be read from up to 100 metres away and allow people to be tracked. As a law-abiding and tax-paying citizen I think that having all my movements recorded is a big invasion of my privacy.
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Last edited by b3lha; 10-31-2006 at 02:52 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2006, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha
This website explains it better than I can:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pr132.html
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html

Essentially, the number of fatal accidents on British roads had been falling at a rate of about 5% every year since the 1950's. This is due to a number of factors including safety improvements to vehicles and better road engineering. Then in around 1993, when speed cameras were introduced the decline in fatal accidents stopped, and more recently has started to rise.

One of the problems with speed cameras is that when drivers see a speed camera, their natural instinct is to hit the brakes then look at their speedo, even if they weren't over the limit. When that happens, the driver behind has to hit their brakes too, and then the driver behind them. If somebody a few cars back isn't paying enough attention then you end up with a rear-end shunt.

There is a speed camera outside my house in a 40 zone that most drivers would reasonably expect be a 60 zone. Almost every day I see drivers lock up and a skid as they try to slow down for the camera. One particularly memorable evening, we heard screaming outside. A motorcyclist had braked suddenly because of the camera and a girl who was riding pillion, had fallen off the back of the bike and slid along the road. She was in a real mess, but fortunately our neighbour is a nurse and looked after her until the ambulance arrived. We never heard whether she recovered or not. The point is that this serious accident that would not have happened if the speed camera had not been there.

The speed camera policy in Britain is nothing more than a money making scam.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/...&icc=NEWS&ct=5

Without wishing to hijack my own thread, Manarius is quite right about the "big brother" thing too. The latest "safety cameras" that are being installed around the country read the number plate of every passing car and this is stored in a computer database. The plan is to track and record all vehicle movements and retain the data for several years. It's not going to stop with cars. There are plans to introduce compulsory identity cards containing RFID chips that can be read from up to 100 metres away and allow people to be tracked. As a law-abiding and tax-paying citizen I think that having all my movements recorded is a big invasion of my privacy.
I'm in Ireland, not the UK as most people know, but I am with you on this one.

This Big Brother thing is looming larger and closer than most of us realise. Here in Ireland the number of fatal accidents has been seriously high, particularly in the last two or three years. A very high percentage are single vehicle only impacts very late at night, boy racers learning the hard way that they can't change the laws of physics.

The others are mostly head-on on main roads. These are often caused by bad roads and bad drivers.

The people who would "fix" this are all on the anti speed and anti drink-driving bandwagon. Recently the police came up with a list of all the "RED" zones, places where there have been a number of accidents in recent years. Great, you might think, they are at last going to fix the visibility at junctions, take away dangerous obstructions, fix pot-holes and put down a decent surface. Yeah, right!!! They are using the RED zone list as justification for putting in contracted speed cameras!!!

On top of this, the latest motorway the M1 heading North is festooned with numberplate recognition cameras. As Phil says, they now have the capability to time your averages between every junction, check where you get on and get off the motorway, run your number past the road-tax database in real time and in general have their nose in your affairs as well as their hand in your pocket.

Ken Livingston started all this crap with the London tax. It opened the door to this numberplate recognition business. You guys in the UK should resist this tax based on road use TO THE DEATH!! They don't need to know where you are all the time just to tax your road use, they could just as easily put the tax on petrol and diesel. If you are using lots of fuel, you are using lots of roads, so paying more tax is a fair approach.

They don't actually NEED to know where you are all the time or your average journey time. It is just that they WANT to know as it gives them more control.

Because of all the late night boy racer accidents we have over here, they are now talking up putting in speed limiters in younger drivers' cars. This of course is bull$hit, it is the driving capability that is at fault, not the speed capability. However, imposed speed limiters in all cars is way cheaper than having a load of traffic police out all night chasing joyriders. So this will be the next big thing.

Sign the petition and voice your opinion with the AA and the RAC and any other representative body that you know. This Big Brother approach is crying out for an election issue. It's time these people stopped using these scattergun approaches to put in control mechanisms on the law abiding citizens. Let them get out there and do their job, catch a few of the crazies, and keep the roads safe for the rest of us. That's what they get paid to do, and they are patently not doing it or incapable of doing it.

Joe
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  #7  
Old 10-31-2006, 07:13 AM
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Im sorry, but how is that any different than seeing a cop on the side of the road and slamming on your brakes?

I agree, that big brother needs to be limited...

I also remember that when I lived in the UK, areas with speed cameras were marked... has that changed? Because its very easy to read the sign, slow down... and go about your day.
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  #8  
Old 10-31-2006, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVX
Im sorry, but how is that any different than seeing a cop on the side of the road and slamming on your brakes?
The difference is that cops (usually) have a certain amount of intelligence: You don't have to jump on the brakes when you see a cop car because they normally won't bother to stop you for 36 in a 30 zone if you are driving safely. In fact they would probably be more likely to stop you if you did suddenly jump on the brakes because that can be dangerous.

But whether people brake for a cop or a speed camera is not really the point. The point is that there is solid scientific evidence that the speed camera policy is detrimental to road safety. All of the evidence can be found on the safespeed website that I linked to earlier.
Paul Smith, the founder, has done a huge amount of research using data obtained from the government under the freedom of information act. His conclusions clearly show a decline in road safety since the introduction of speed cameras.

Furthermore, he has documented the extent to which our government are fiddling the statistics in their official reports in order to make it appear that speed cameras are improving road safety rather than just generating millions of pounds as a form of stealth taxation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVX
I agree, that big brother needs to be limited...

I also remember that when I lived in the UK, areas with speed cameras were marked... has that changed? Because its very easy to read the sign, slow down... and go about your day.
Some cameras are marked. Some aren't. Some are mobile. If they are so easy to avoid, why do 1 in 5 drivers now have speeding convictions?
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:37 AM
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It's all very easy, if you believe the mantra "speed kills". Say it often enough and you might start to believe it; and then you would no longer need to think at all.

But it's more complicated than that, the real truth is that sometimes speed kills, other times it's a badly maintained car that kills, or a badly designed road, there are lots of reasons people die on the roads.

My favourite might be "driving like a pratt kills".

Focussing law enforcement on just one reason (speed) is stupid and illogical. To take this to its ultimate "reductio ad absurbum" limit would imply that we should have global 5 m.p.h. speed limits. It would undoubtedly be very succesfull.

The truth is that some arbitrary level of road deaths is the price we have to pay in exchange for freedom of movement. Society as a whole decides when the enforcement of the law becomes too restrictive, and then either the government recognises this and responds appropriately, or it gets voted out.

Unfortunately democracy is not always a particularly logical process, so I would not hold your breath until logic finally prevails.
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  #10  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha
The difference is that cops (usually) have a certain amount of intelligence: You don't have to jump on the brakes when you see a cop car because they normally won't bother to stop you for 36 in a 30 zone if you are driving safely. In fact they would probably be more likely to stop you if you did suddenly jump on the brakes because that can be dangerous.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b3lha
Some cameras are marked. Some aren't. Some are mobile. If they are so easy to avoid, why do 1 in 5 drivers now have speeding convictions?
I would venture to say that the reason is that 1 in 5 drivers were speeding. And yes, it is that simple. All the technology does is take bias out of the equation. If you are speeding, you get a ticket. They dont care if you cry/have big tits/etc...

It's been a long time (8 Years) since I live in the UK, and while I dont agree with the whole speed camera idea, I dont agree with some of your arguments either.
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2006, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVX
I would venture to say that the reason is that 1 in 5 drivers were speeding. And yes, it is that simple. All the technology does is take bias out of the equation. If you are speeding, you get a ticket. They dont care if you cry/have big tits/etc...
Well, OBVIOUSLY they were speeding, otherwise they wouldn't have got a ticket. But how many of them were driving dangerously enough to deserve a £60 fine and 3 penalty points? The technology takes the intelligence out of the equation. People now drive around with their eyes glued to their speedometer because they know that their speed is being assessed by an unthinking machine, rather than the safety of their driving being assessed by an intelligent human being.

Is it safer for a driver to look out for kids in the road while driving past a school, or to keep looking at their speedometer to ensure they don't accidentally creep over the 20mph limit? In Britain, the drivers who are actually looking where they are going, are the ones who are will get a ticket for 24mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSVX
It's been a long time (8 Years) since I live in the UK, and while I dont agree with the whole speed camera idea, I dont agree with some of your arguments either.
Your lack of acceptance doesn't make the scientific evidence any less valid.
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:28 AM
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A lot of it could easily be corrected by the tolerances set in the equipment. If its set so tight that you get a ticket at 24MPH, in a 20 zone, that is absolutely insane.

Again, I agree that the idea is bad. There are a lot of circumstances that could change the outcome. Like if you had to accelerate in order to avoid an accident, and subsequently got a ticket. Just crazy.

We all know its not that hard to maintain a steady speed in a car. Any somewhat experienced driver should be able to get to the desired speed and maintain it (within reason; read: tolerances). If you cant maintain speed without taking your eyes of the speedo, when you're in a car, you need to be in the left seat (in the UK of course).
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2006, 02:22 PM
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My principal bone of contention is the selective use of bad and misleading information in order to justify or speed up the introduction of automaton control devices.

When nations go to war, it is common for the protagonists to demonise the perceived opposition. That way armies and munitions are mobilised, and possible pacifist misgivings are closed down by the weight of public opinion. Public opinion that has been inflamed by rhetoric.

The police and the justice departments employ the same tactics. They spout all kinds of "statistics" to show how dangerous the roads have become, and they blame ALL fatal accidents on speeding.

All of us would agree that most fatal accidents are caused by driver error. Inattention, distraction, mobile phones, changing CD's and many many more things can take your attention long enough to have your car decorating the front of a truck or a bus. The police will lump in the accident with the rest, and blame speeding.

Bad or non-existent signage, bad junction visibility, bad road surface, bad lighting, poorly designed roads, all of these have caused or contributed to fatal accidents. They will also be completely overlooked in favour of speeding as a cause of accidents.

Why is this? Simple. Money. It is cheaper to make a business case for the use of a speed camera that generates revenue, than to provide more traffic corps to patrol the roads and pull over bad and inattentive drivers as mentioned above.

It is cheaper to provide contracted mobile speed camera operators who will sit in lay-byes on safe dual carraigeways clocking up points and fines, than to seek out and rectify the physical road conditions that we all know lead to dangerous situations even for careful drivers.

As long as this is the case, we will continue to be fish in a barrel for their speed guns and cameras.

We have been burgled three times. Nothing was ever recovered. Nobody was ever charged. The police said "claim it off your insurance, we will sign the forms so you can process the claims"

Who do I regard as a criminal, the guy passing me at 75 on the motorway in a hurry to work, or the three guys who invaded our house and took our stuff?

Which is most likely to be caught and penalised? Yep, that's what I think also.

I'm a bit of a right winger, and I actually like policemen[and women]. However, right now, I am certain they have lost the plot. They are alienating the population at large for a few sheckels. I am ashamed that they have lost sight of what criminal activity actually is.

I don't suppose they could get funding to install a few hundred cameras that might catch a few burgulars and put away a few drug dealers? Eh?

Probably not, they won't be able to generate any revenue from burgulars or drug dealers.

Joe
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:29 PM
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Phil,

Did I hear in the news or yahoo, or someplace like that, that someone caught themselves on fire trying torch a speed camera, someone that had previously been ticketed by the camera?
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Old 11-02-2006, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed
Phil,

Did I hear in the news or yahoo, or someplace like that, that someone caught themselves on fire trying torch a speed camera, someone that had previously been ticketed by the camera?
I wouldn't be surprised.

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm
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