why?

[Shadow248]

Ok if you want to get real technical then...where is the site hosted? If it's in the US then it is subject to our laws. Doesn't matter if it's private or public, basic rights still remain. You can't kill someone on your private property and not be prosecuted.

I know what happened to the "regular" members that used to post here on a daily basis, I still talk to several of them over E-mail. They have moved on a found other places where they can speak freely and not be prosecuted (banned). You don't have to dictate what can be talked about to keep this site civil. The original practice of punishing members for inappropriate behavior was more than sufficient. As the saying goes, don't punish the group for the mistakes of one or two people. Especially when you know exactly who those troublemakers are. Most, if not all, of us know how to conduct ourselves as adults and carry on civil conversations. I think myself and a few others have shown how to have heated debates and keep them respectful and mature. All that needs to be done is the same thing that has been done for centuries in this country. Punish the troublemakers. Once you start banning pratices that "have been known to cause trouble" you start the downhill slide that will be the end to this great community. We've already seen the negative effects of this in this country and others.

I have no problem if you don't want us to talk about street racing, what really bothers me is that I have to carefully edit what I post to make sure I have no references or comments that could be perceived as sympathetic to street racing. Then before you know it I won't be able to talk about driving on the highway because that would be moving at high speed in the proximity of another vehicle (which is pretty close to the definition of street racing)...and it spirals from there. I know where this is going, i've seen it many times before. Like I said, use all the justification you want, the problem doesn't lie with the street racing topic, it could be anything at all. The problem is when you start dictating what people can and cannot talk about, you turn your back on the values that have been the foundation of some of the greatest nations in the world. Most likely, your home country.

[Chiketkd]

Not quite.

For example: If I went to stay at your house for the night and you told me that political topics were not to be discussed due to a propensity for leading to violent arguments in your family - then as an adult, I would either need to respect that or stay somewhere else. This is Chris' site. It is not paid for by our taxpayers money. He can choose to lay down whatever ground rules he pleases...

-Chike

Originally posted by Shadow248
Ok if you want to get real technical then...where is the site hosted? If it's in the US then it is subject to our laws. Doesn't matter if it's private or public, basic rights still remain. You can't kill someone on your private property and not be prosecuted.

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Shadow248
Ok if you want to get real technical then...where is the site hosted? If it's in the US then it is subject to our laws. Doesn't matter if it's private or public, basic rights still remain. You can't kill someone on your private property and not be prosecuted.

To a degree.... In Cook County, IL, you can not legally own a gun unless you are a cop or have permit (which you get with a judge order). What happens to the "Right to bare arms?"

[mohrds]

Originally posted by soobiesvx93
i do understand that this is privatley owned, however we are all in this network and should have some sort of say in what goes on or at least suggestions.

Suggest away. You can also suggest things to your elected officials. What happens next is out of your hands.

Sorry guys, I don't mean to be excessivly blunt, but The rules were made by your nominated moderators and the owner and bearer of monthly expenses. The rules are the rules until they are changed. They will be changed as this board changes, but until then, the rules are the rules.

Doug

[mohrds]

Originally posted by Seraph
What happens to the "Right to bare arms?"

Damn, I better put a long sleeve shirt on, my arms are showing

Doug

[mohrds]

Originally posted by Chiketkd
Not quite.

For example: If I went to stay at your house for the night and you told me that political topics were not to be discussed due to a propensity for leading to violent arguments in your family - then as an adult, I would either need to respect that or stay somewhere else. This is Chris' site. It is not paid for by our taxpayers money. He can choose to lay down whatever ground rules he pleases...

-Chike

Excellent example.

[dcarrb]

Oh, please.

I once overheard a fellow who'd been asked to refrain from smoking in a convenience store hiss: "This country's becomin' communist!"

This "we should have the right to say whatever we want here..." angle is every bit as lame.

It's a very simple concept: Behave as if you're a guest.


dcb

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Shadow248
I have no problem if you don't want us to talk about street racing, what really bothers me is that I have to carefully edit what I post to make sure I have no references or comments that could be perceived as sympathetic to street racing.

I don't really perceive this. I have no idea what you're talking about. If you have no problem with a ban on street racing threads, why do you have a problem with a ban on street racing threads?

Originally posted by Shadow248
Then before you know it I won't be able to talk about driving on the highway

Ah, I get it - you're mad about things that haven't actually happened yet.

Originally posted by Shadow248
because that would be moving at high speed in the proximity of another vehicle (which is pretty close to the definition of street racing)

It's not. Come on - you know better than that. It's already been spelled out for everybody.

Originally posted by Shadow248
...and it spirals from there. I know where this is going, i've seen it many times before.

Clearly you're more qualified to be a moderator, then. You're welcome to ask Chris to put yourself in the position instead of us and see what he says.

Originally posted by Shadow248
Like I said, use all the justification you want, the problem doesn't lie with the street racing topic, it could be anything at all.

Yes it does, and no it couldn't. We're dealing with things one at a time. Once again, for the record:

We've decided that this site will not condone street racing.

It's really no more complicated than that.

Originally posted by Shadow248
The problem is when you start dictating what people can and cannot talk about, you turn your back on the values that have been the foundation of some of the greatest nations in the world. Most likely, your home country.

Hey, look, guys - now we're not just power-hungry dictators. We're also traitors! You're jumping to conclusions and blowing things way out of proportion, man, just as Benebob did with his Red Scare analogy.

Anyway, thank you for your concern. We'll keep the spiraling under control.

[dcarrb]

Originally posted by Seraph


To a degree.... In Cook County, IL, you can not legally own a gun unless you are a cop or have permit (which you get with a judge order). What happens to the "Right to bare arms?"

In Kennesaw, Georgia, it's not a right, but a command: Each head of household is required by town ordinance to own a firearm.


dcb

[NeedForSpeed]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Thank you for the reminder, Phil.

Either way, the arguments that 'this is America' don't really hold any water anyway. Who ever thought this site was a democracy?

Granted, we want more than anything else to serve the SVX community with this site, but it's just not a democracy, folks. The fact that the site is hosted in America is of little consequence.

Now, I hope nobody flies off the handle and starts yelling about how we're all power hungry and want to control everything. I'm just telling it like it is.

Whoever thought that America was a Democracy??

Okay, this site isn't American, but I am an American, and very thankful for the blood that founded this nation. I'm not making an argument that 'this is America', let me use YOUR property to converse about street racing. I'm not here to take issue with your rules, I have no quarrel with them. Call me a criminal, I'll take exception to that.

America is NOT a democracy. Ever say the Pledge? What did you pledge to? In a democracy, the majority can take your freedoms and your rights. In America, not so. [Again, I'm not speaking about this privately owned forum].

I'm talking about Philadelphia freedom, you're talking about street racing. One is a big deal, the other in magnitude rates a 'so what'. No one has the right to injure or harm anyone in any way, and if one does, the severest consequences will apply. One should always consider the possible ramifications of any action or inaction, and take full responsibility for the outcome. One should always treat another with complete respect, here or anywhere.

My point is this, I am not a lawbreaking criminal just because my speedo reads higher than the posted sign. I entered into a license agreement with the state. In that agreement, I agreed to pay a toll, a fine, a tax, a whatever you wish to call it, should I exceed a speed limit, for example. Because I agreed to pay accordingly, and I agreed to abide by the rules of the LAWFUL contract I signed, I am NOT A LAWBREAKER if I completely fulfill my obligation to the contract. To break the law, I would have to ignor my signed license contract by not paying any applicable fee, etc. ONLY THEN could I be guilty of breaking the law of contract. I would be breaking the contractual law that I voluntarily entered into with the state. Speeding is not breaking 'the law'.

Now, if I injured someone, I could be tried in another court, not a municipal court. If I injured someone or their property, I would be charged with breaking the law and tried by jury. I am not going to receive a notice asking me to send to court the specified amount for killing someone. Yes, there is a difference here folks.
There is a distinct difference between 'violating' a statute and in 'breaking' the law.

In another country, or world, citizens are subjects of government or king, owned by the king or government. I am an American.
Freedom means responsibility. There is a saying, "One cannot be both free and ignorant".

[Mr. Pockets]

That was all very interesting. Let me know if I'm getting this right. You're saying that street racing is just like every other activity which violates motor vehicle code. That those activities aren't 'illegal,' just 'extras' you pay more money for.

Great. Explain that to the innocent bystanders who are killed because they had the misfortune to be walking down a street where they expected nobody would come onto the sidewalk, sideways, at 90mph. I'm sure they'll feel much better about it.

This is why we have laws in this country, people. Because sometimes people do make the wrong decision and do harm to others. I suppose you think those people shouldn't be punished.

Your semantics are a little inaccurate. You say that when you do certain things, and pay your fines, you're not breaking any laws. I say that when you get your license, you agree to not do certain things. If you do those things and violate the license, there is a penalty. If you continue to do it, you lose your license entirely.

It's the same thing on this site. We have rules in place to keep the peace.

Fine, since you don't like the term 'illegal,' then I'll put it this way:

Street racing is wrong.

That's right, I called it wrong. That is the position of this site's administration, based on the facts.

I'm tired of going around in circles over this with the few people who seem determined to make a big deal over it. The bottom line is this:

We have banned threads on street racing. Any such threads will be pulled or locked and the member who posted it will be warned. End of story.

[NeedForSpeed]

Well,

Yes, very interesting indeed.

I explained my point very clearly, twice. Not once did I criticize or speak adversely against you or an administer. As I said before, I was very much in support. I made it clear, and stated so clearly, what EXACTLY my point was. By your comments, I can't see that you made any attempt to understand my point.

You said,

'Let me know if I'm getting this right?'

I'm letting your know that you are NOT getting it right!

You missed it entirely. I did not address street racing, made it clear that I was not. You are drawing your own conclusions to my comments, which you have every right to do. YOU WANT TO SAY THAT DRINKING A BEER IN YOUR LIVING ROOM AND RUNNING OVER SOMEONE WHILE DRIVING INTOXICATED ARE THE SAME THING! Sorry, you definately are NOT GETTING IT RIGHT!

You said,

'Explain that to the innocent bystanders, etc.'

I believe that I CLEARLY STATED that one should be responsible for their actions or inactions, to the fullest extent, and would be found guilty by jury if a person harmed another or their property. Did you notice that? Honestly, how could you miss that??

Further, bystanders on the street are participants, NOT 'INNOCENT BYSTANDERS' in the scenario you proposed. They must realize that their decision to participate in such activity could cost their life or the life of someone they brought along. That is personal responsibility. I stated so CLEARLY. The state can't always be responsible to protect someone from being stupid. Sometimes the state has the unfortunate task of cleaning up the results. Yes, we all pay for it. Please tell me where I said I'm in favor of such folly?

You said,

'Your semantics are a little inaccurate'

My semantics are completely accurate! Please tell me your basis for your statement? Have you studied law, been to law school, or what? Please don't draw MORE conclusions, I am not saying it is necessary to have any formal education in such, or that I somehow know more about anything than you do, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

You said,

'That's why we have laws'

I totally agree, that is exactly why we have laws. Statutes are different, as stated. You don't get 'cited' for murder, you get 'charged', and then a jury decides. I didn't face a jury the last time I received a parking ticket. It is true that one can break the law as a result of violating a statute. I made it clear. VERY, VERY CLEAR!

I really don't see why you are so determined to twist my comments or make an issue out of them. I was not engaged in your dialog about street racing and I resent that you keep trying to drag me in. I don't know who you are going 'around in circles with', but it is not I. Please don't drag me into your circle. You want to equate someone dying in a street race with someone driving 56 mph down the expressway. Sorry, Those are two different things. I'll TRY to make my point again, and you can go back to see why the point, but driving 56 is not 'criminal'. You simply can't make a criminal out of someone that 'violates' a speed sign or a parking space. No law is broken unless one fails to honor the contract. Speeding is not 'against the law', even though the expression is commonly used. One must understand what law is, and that WAS the point.

You have the right to interpret as you will. Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough for you or on a level that you could relate. That's okay, I gave my best, but it wasn't for your benefit, as you never heard me. Maybe someone else will get it and realize that with action comes responsibility. You must have some 'ax to grind', but thanks, mine is already sharp. As I CLEARLY IMPLIED, we are having two separate conversations, you're talking about street racing, and I'm talking about something else.

You said,

'Street racing is wrong'

Did I say that street racing was right?? I never said one way or another. I never even spoke about street racing! We are definately NOT ON THE SAME PAGE. Take it up with someone else that wants to discuss it. I don't, I never did. Can't figure out why you quote me then get all emotional about street racing?

You said,

'We have banned threads on street racing'

I said, CLEARLY AND THEN MORE CLEARLY, that I have no issue to make about the policy I don't need a thread on street racing, never asked for one, never spoke about racing, so honestly, why attack and twist my intent?? If you don't understand my point, just say so, and we will move on. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, I'm just saying, again, FINALLY, ONCE AGAIN,

I AM NOT A CRIMINAL, OR A LAW-BREAKER. Your definition of such is completely erroneous. You cannot make 'criminals' or 'law-breakers' out of us by whim.

Remember, ONE CANNOT BE BOTH FREE AND IGNORANT.

Please consider the meaning. Only then, may you understand my position and comments.

Sincerely,

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
That was all very interesting. Let me know if I'm getting this right. You're saying that street racing is just like every other activity which violates motor vehicle code. That those activities aren't 'illegal,' just 'extras' you pay more money for.

Great. Explain that to the innocent bystanders who are killed because they had the misfortune to be walking down a street where they expected nobody would come onto the sidewalk, sideways, at 90mph. I'm sure they'll feel much better about it.

This is why we have laws in this country, people. Because sometimes people do make the wrong decision and do harm to others. I suppose you think those people shouldn't be punished.

Your semantics are a little inaccurate. You say that when you do certain things, and pay your fines, you're not breaking any laws. I say that when you get your license, you agree to not do certain things. If you do those things and violate the license, there is a penalty. If you continue to do it, you lose your license entirely.

It's the same thing on this site. We have rules in place to keep the peace.

Fine, since you don't like the term 'illegal,' then I'll put it this way:

Street racing is wrong.

That's right, I called it wrong. That is the position of this site's administration, based on the facts.

I'm tired of going around in circles over this with the few people who seem determined to make a big deal over it. The bottom line is this:

We have banned threads on street racing. Any such threads will be pulled or locked and the member who posted it will be warned. End of story.

[Mr. Pockets]

Both of us are totally misinterpreting the other so I say we just call it a day. I'm willing to admit that I took your words out of context and you've clearly done the same with mine.

That wasn't my intention, as I'm sure it wasn't yours. I have no 'axe to grind' with you or anybody else.

[NeedForSpeed]

Thanks,

I have no personal quarrel with anyone, not you, or anyone else. No time for it really. However, I DO know what you are saying.

My position on street racing is:

I believe street racing is foolish. If caught, the statutory penalty may be to forfeit your ride and pay a stiff fine. If someone is killed or injured, you are subject to the law. You may do time, as well as live with a life-time of haunting memories. So, do we really need threads that PROMOTE 'street racing'?

That said, if someone wants to mention how fast their car is, so be it. If someone wants to mention how they crashed their car, as someone did recently, let it be a lesson for others. Sometimes lessons are learned from reading or hearing how foolish someone is or was. [My uncle for example] It can make a lasting impression. There are many young drivers on this site. I for one want them to be heard.

Let's carefully draw a distinction between careless, wreckless and unlawful behavior where lives are at risk and statutory indescretions. They are not the same thing. A lesson learned the hard way and posted may save the life of a reader. Free speech has advantages, I'm for some latitude. I'm also grateful that I am not responsible for any editing of this forum.

That said, I am not familiar with threads or sites that are used by street-racers, so I do not know what it is that is not wanted, or what it is that is to be protected. However, I do want to know the world my boys are exposed to, what pressures are put on them to participate in whatever. So, I really don't want to see everything underground and out of sight. I can have no influence in that scenario.

I wonder how much street racing threads are an issue with SVX, as this is not really a group of pocket rocket riders. I'm not a street-racer, so I really do not understand the issue. However, I have no problem with how the site is managed.

I do appreciate having access to those that have knowledge about SVX on the net. This has been most valuable for me already. I hope that this Net thrives.

I wish everyone to consider their actions carefully, and weigh the cost accordingly. As is said,

'The life you save could be your own'.

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
Both of us are totally misinterpreting the other so I say we just call it a day. I'm willing to admit that I took your words out of context and you've clearly done the same with mine.

That wasn't my intention, as I'm sure it wasn't yours. I have no 'axe to grind' with you or anybody else.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by NeedForSpeed
I wonder how much street racing threads are an issue with SVX, as this is not really a group of pocket rocket riders.

For the most part, it's not. But, predictably, as the car decreases in market value we're getting more and more young members for whom the SVX is their first car.

I'm not saying that we need to 'protect' those younger members from anything - we just don't want to condone activities like street racing on these forums. Many of us are motorsports enthusiasts, and many of us race in controlled, sanctioned environments. We'd much prefer to let that serve as the example and the standard of this site.