m.p.g

NORMAL is normal mode

POWER is an integral part of NORMAL that auto kicks in on gradients

ECON is a switched 'lower rev change and sort of overdrive' mode

MANUAL is a switched 'hold it in gear' mode

[svxistentialist]

I don't think you can have read all the previous posts.

POWER is not an integral part of NORMAL. It is definitely a different shift map. It changes up quicker, and it holds onto lower gears longer.

On UK and US cars without a POWER switch, the only way to access it is from the NORMAL mode. It switches in by responding to various inputs, such as the speed of throttle movement, speed of change that is, and is relative to road speed.

The ECON button in UK cars stops the ECU from switching on the power map, so the car behaves like it has only one mode. It will change down for kickdown all right, but will only hold the gears as normal, will not rev out to the limiter for keeping the foot planted. This is designed by boffins to stop you having fun, and to save a whole 2 mpg, so you can save the planet over a few hundred thousand miles or so.

Joe

[Andy]

Originally posted by svxistentialist
I don't think you can have read all the previous posts.

POWER is not an integral part of NORMAL. It is definitely a different shift map. It changes up quicker, and it holds onto lower gears longer.

On UK and US cars without a POWER switch, the only way to access it is from the NORMAL mode. It switches in by responding to various inputs, such as the speed of throttle movement, speed of change that is, and is relative to road speed.

The ECON button in UK cars stops the ECU from switching on the power map, so the car behaves like it has only one mode. It will change down for kickdown all right, but will only hold the gears as normal, will not rev out to the limiter for keeping the foot planted. This is designed by boffins to stop you having fun, and to save a whole 2 mpg, so you can save the planet over a few hundred thousand miles or so.

Joe

Having given the ECON mode a very good tryout (several weeks) I found that it is far more sluggist than in NORMAL. Upshifts are much earlier than Normal, seem to be even smoother and kickdown all but disappears.

Driving in MAN feels like ECON, but without 1st gear. engaging ECON while in MAN mode seemed to make no difference.

I therefore assume that there are 3 shift maps, POWER, NORMAL & ECON. The MAN button starts you in 2nd gear and engages ECON mode.

[svxistentialist]

Yeah, Andy, I could accept that. Makes sense.

I find kickdown in Normal mode sluggish anyhow.

Joe

Read them all and I still maintain that- on UK cars- POWER is an automatic part of NORMAL, as the manual clearly states in part 6-6 entitled "D" Drive and which SVXistentialist, having sought to correct me, curiously seems to be confirming in his para 3.

So there we are -or aren't.

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by m.messenger
Read them all and I still maintain that- on UK cars- POWER is an automatic part of NORMAL, as the manual clearly states in part 6-6 entitled "D" Drive and which SVXistentialist, having sought to correct me, curiously seems to be confirming in his para 3.

So there we are -or aren't.

We are dealing with transmissions fitted to cars for three separate markets, UK/Europe, US and JDM/Oz/NZ. There are differences in the availability of driver operated switches for the trannies, and some switches were changed or dropped later in the life of the car's production.

Yet they are all fitted with the same Aisan gearbox, the 4EAT, and similar Electronic Control Units. The box is designed with three [3] driving modes, and these are called different things in different markets, depending on what the switchgear is described as. Andy gave a good description of the three "modes" in UK cars, and I have defered to his experience, not having driven a UK model myself.

However, I corrected you on one point only, where you say in one post that POWER is "an integral part" of NORMAL mode, and latterly you maintain the same thing, saying that POWER is "an automatic part" of NORMAL.

POWER is described in the US owner manual as follows;

'In D, one of two drive modes is automatically selected, the "normal" mode for regular driving and the "power" mode for uphill driving or rapid acceleration. These modes are selected automatically according to how quickly the accelerator pedal is pressed. In the "power" mode, the "power" mode light on the instrument panel comes on, and then goes off when the vehicle returns to the "normal" mode.'

It is clear from this that these are two separate drive modes, even if selection of the faster mode is only accessed from the normal driving mode of the box in most markets. The reason for the correction is that your interpretation could be construed that there are only two "modes" in the box, Normal and Econ, and Power is an enhanced kickdown part of Normal. This interpretation is incorrect, and could confuse newcomers to the forum or to ownership, so the correction was for the sake of clarity.

We are probably wasting time on semantics. One man's "mode" is another man's "automatic part", eh, messenger?

Joe

I agree that i should have clarified in the first place that I was referring to the UK spec cars, in which over 4 years I have owned two and driven nearly 90,000 miles. The manual states what it states , if you'd care to check it out. One man's facts are another man's semantics, or does that confuse the issue?

[b3lha]

I'm confused now, do the UK cars have 3 maps compared to others which only have 2? This would be purely determined by software in the TCU.

Lets forget about Manual Mode - since we know all that does is lockout 1st gear.

The determining factor is this: At which RPMs do the gear shifts occur in Economy, Normal and Power Modes?

Phil.

Hi Phil,

In my UK spec car the transmission upchanges at the following RPMs:

Economy: c. 2,500 RPM (also reluctant to kick-down)
Normal: c. 3,000 - 3,500 RPM (relative to throttle position)
Power: c. 6,500 RPM (relative to throttle position).

The "Manual" button on my car is more than just a 1st gear lock out. With the manual button engaged I can shift between gears 1 and 3 manually, and the transmission will not shift up or down (it'll even try to pull away in 3rd).

Jason
--

Originally posted by b3lha
I'm confused now, do the UK cars have 3 maps compared to others which only have 2? This would be purely determined by software in the TCU.

Lets forget about Manual Mode - since we know all that does is lockout 1st gear.

The determining factor is this: At which RPMs do the gear shifts occur in Economy, Normal and Power Modes?

Phil.

When I referred to the 'manual states', I meant the Owners Manual that comes with the UK car - item 6.6 is entitled "D" Drive, and in this part of the booklet it says - " In "D" one of two drive modes is automatically selected, the 'normal' mode for regular driving, and the 'power' mode for uphill driving or rapid acceleration. These modes are selected automatically according to how quickly the acceleratot is depressed. In the 'power' mode, the 'power' mode light comes on, and then goes off when the vehicle returns to 'normal' mode". It then says under the heading ECONOMY mode - " In the ECONOMY mode, the transmission changes gears for maximum fuel econmy and improved mileage dueing high-speed driving. In this mode, there is no automatic switching between the POWER mode and the NORMAL mode".


ECON - is on the gear shift, and MANUAL - is a button on the centre console, and they are driver-switchable modes, but the above mentioned 'power' can not be independently controlled by the driver unless he puts his foot down, and there is no button for it.

So don't shoot the messenger.

[Andy]

Originally posted by m.messenger


When I referred to the 'manual states', I meant the Owners Manual that comes with the UK car - item 6.6 is entitled "D" Drive, and in this part of the booklet it says - " In "D" one of two drive modes is automatically selected, the 'normal' mode for regular driving, and the 'power' mode for uphill driving or rapid acceleration. These modes are selected automatically according to how quickly the acceleratot is depressed. In the 'power' mode, the 'power' mode light comes on, and then goes off when the vehicle returns to 'normal' mode". It then says under the heading ECONOMY mode - " In the ECONOMY mode, the transmission changes gears for maximum fuel econmy and improved mileage dueing high-speed driving. In this mode, there is no automatic switching between the POWER mode and the NORMAL mode".


ECON - is on the gear shift, and MANUAL - is a button on the centre console, and they are driver-switchable modes, but the above mentioned 'power' can not be independently controlled by the driver unless he puts his foot down, and there is no button for it.

So don't shoot the messenger.

...........but which manual do you have, and which gearbox?

[oab_au]

Very. interesting, My 95 Aust model has the manual button on the shift. No other buttons. Power is by the accelerator pedal movement.

I can tell that there are 3 different shift patterns, Normal,Power and cruise control.

Harvey.

[Sonar]

Hi!
My SVX -92 (Swe model) has a "Manual" switch on the console behind the gearshift and a "Econ" on the shift itself.

The Manual button behaves differently than my Legacy AT,
on the Legacy, pressing Manual, you can start i say 2:nd gear and the AT does not change up or down, but if you try a start from 3:rd gear, the car starts on second gear and immidiatly changes to 3:rd, and stays there.
But in the SVX, the only thing happening is that 1:st is skipped.

The Econ button behaves similar in both, pressing it, the AT does not change to "Power" mode upon acc. pedal "abuse".

More or less like svxistentialist said.

In both the Legacy and the SVX the AT is sometimes sluggish, and sometimes it, sort of changes its mind, or hesitates, going from 3:rd to 2:nd or 1:st and then back to 3:rd again.... mostly in cornering or tight turns upon acceleration.

Pressing the Econ button makes it more smooth and stops the hesitation, but I'll really have to "floor" it before the AT kickdowns,
so I ususally drive in Econ-mode and manually select 3:rd whenever I need it.

The fuel consumption is in average (15000km) is 0.83L/10km.
If I drive "hard" and approx. 10-20km/h over the speed limits, it seems to take 0.87L/10km, and a soft driving within the speed limits makes a 0.80L/10km.

The effects of the "Econ" button is very hard to tell and I think you must drive the same distance many times in both Econ and normal mode to mesaure the diff.

My driving is mostly highway because I have 400km to my work! (*lucky me*)

Originally posted by Andy


...........but which manual do you have, and which gearbox?

the Owners Manual has 1992 on the front, but I can't check anything about the ID of the gearbox until next week. will let you know. Everything in the Manual seems correct relative to my '94 cars.

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by oab_au
Very. interesting, My 95 Aust model has the manual button on the shift. No other buttons. Power is by the accelerator pedal movement.

I can tell that there are 3 different shift patterns, Normal,Power and cruise control.

Harvey.

Hi Harvey

How's it going in Coff's Harbour?

I suspect all markets have the Manual switch in one place or another. It is designed to get you out of slippery conditions, so all markets require it.

The MANUAL function does a couple of things. It only operates in 2 or 3 range, so if you are in D with MANU lit up, I presume POWER would be available. Must try this, see if it works. It shuts out 1 range, so the car will start in 2. It will change up quickly to 3, and hold 3, depending on speed, if 3 is selected. It will not allow kickdown from 3 to 2, but it will start briefly in 2 from a standing start. The POWER shift map is locked out when MANU is on and the selector is in 2 or 3.

I have a number of different reference books, 92 US owner manual, 92 US full Workshop Manual, ATSG manual for the 4EAT and End Wrench manual for the 4EAT.

Having researched them all, I have changed my opinion slightly. Only slightly

First, it's important to attend to the semantics side of things. There is an intrinsic difference between shift changing maps stored in the ECU software, and drive "modes", which change depending on these switches we have such as Manu, Econ or Power, activating or cutting off certain control functions in the autobox. This is far from a simple piece of equipment we have, so it's easy to get confused on what it is doing.

According to The Oracle, as I regard the Workshop Manual, there are only two different shift maps, which they describe as Shift Pattern Select Control. This may answer Phil's question above. The paragraph states:

" Shift pattern is selectable automatically between a normal pattern suitable for ordinary economy running and a power pattern suitable for climbing uphill or rapid acceleration"

This implies and clarifies one point, that the Normal mode is the same shift map as Economy. This means that in Econ, changes up should happen at the same time as in Normal, which conflicts with Andy's findings, but agrees with what Sonar is saying.

Regarding the buttons Harvey, the POWER switch was dropped from Japanese models I think after 93, maybe 94 or 95, I'm sure Paddles or James would know this one. I think James' grey car is 92 and has a POWER button, I know Belha's car has one.

So to clarify:

UK cars have 2 shift patterns, Normal and Power.

Normal shift pattern has the same change up points as Economy, and they vary in both depending on road speed and throttle opening.

In Normal, the Power shift map is accessible for rapid acceleration, and when activated will cause the car to hold on to lower gears longer while accelerating, and will give quicker access to kickdown if required.

In Economy "mode", when the Econ switch is on, there is no access to the Power shiftmap, the car will change up swiftly and smoothly, and will be reluctant to kickdown without planting the welly.

In Manual "mode", as above, it only works in 2 or 3, locks out 1 and locks out the Power shiftmap in the 2 or 3 range. Also locks out kickdown if 3 is selected. With 3 selected, it will start briefly in 2, and then hold 3 range.

I have a number of charts that explain the relationship between shift points for the two shift maps, relative to vehicle speed and throttle opening. They explain a lot, I will get them scanned and get Earl to install them in the How-to.


Joe