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  #1  
Old 07-05-2002, 10:59 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Question 6 speed trannies - Why?

Ok, I know they're here to stay, & I guess many automotive mags have addressed the advantages, but I have to ask this group - Why?
Now, from an old 3-on-the-tree guy, to a 4-on-the-floor Chevy in the early 60's, to all 4 speed all the time European cars, to 5 speed everywhere on Earth today, I just wondered what we're gaining? The first 6 speed offered on a mass production car that I can remember, was (I think), on an '80s 70 HP Toyota SR5 AWD wagon. I can understand more gears being desirable for lesser powered vehicles, but what's the advantage on a 'Vette or Porsche etc. with 350 plus ponies, that could scorch rubber even if taking off in third gear?
If I'm missing something here, please enlighten me. If this is all about "purist's precision", then let's hold out for the 7 speed.

Amen. Ron.
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2002, 03:24 AM
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Yes Ron, why ?

Ron, us old fogies must accept that logic does no longer apply. The stylists, the PR brigade the sales dept., and to be frank the bull**** artists hold sway in modern auto design. It must have more numbers, no matter what for, to sell to the gullible public.

Colour (Color) co ordinated bumpers that cost an arm and a leg to restore having been gently scraped or bruised by an ash can, supermarket trolley wooden fence, kids bike or whatever are my pet hate. Remember those chrome bumpers which allowed one to explore a tight space against a fence, wall, or what ever, when squeezing into a tight parking space. I am sure this is the reason for so many who drive off roaders in the city with no intention of going bush or even engaging four wheel drive.

Yes sir in this car you have torque down low and over a wide rev. range, and power from 1500 to 7000 RPM like never before and six speeds because you have just grown up from a twenty one speed bicycle. You will be able to really impress your mates who have only four. Now if the powers that be will stop gathering taxes through speed restrictions you may be able to use fifth and sixth which are all inclusive in the price we are asking..

By the way in anticipation of following comments I would point out that my first car was a racing special which I built myself from a 1928 Fiat 509 which had only a three speed gearbox. A two speed Beauty Ford Model T diff.. assembly was incorporated to provide a quite well spaced six speeds and two in reverse ! My sport was cycle racing. The pros and cons of multi ratios are well within the scope of my practical experience.

Good one Ron, may the sun shine upon you. *<)
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  #3  
Old 07-06-2002, 04:15 AM
LarryIII LarryIII is offline
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Ron,

Why settle for 7-speeds. Why not go for a Oct-O-Box.
Now 8 speeds would be almost tactor-trailer like.

Audi is playing with the old DAF no-speed tranny. Maybe
no-speeds are the future. Only time will tell.

Larry III
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  #4  
Old 07-06-2002, 08:03 AM
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Maybe car companies are hoping the six speed trannys will lower the fuel consumption of the cars that have them.......Corvettes, Firebirds,...etc. If you can do 70 MPH at only 1,400 RPM (just an example) you can up the car's Highway MPG and make the tree huggers at least a little happier.........

David
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2002, 10:10 AM
Green1995SVX
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Originally posted by LarryIII
Ron,

Why settle for 7-speeds. Why not go for a Oct-O-Box.
Now 8 speeds would be almost tactor-trailer like.

Audi is playing with the old DAF no-speed tranny. Maybe
no-speeds are the future. Only time will tell.

Larry III
My car had a no-speed tranny once... it wasn't suppost to though.

M
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2002, 02:48 PM
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Ron,

I know your question is partly rhetorical, and I also would empathise with Trevor's reply, but I have a theory about this current marketing six-speed fever.

An engine that generates large amounts of torque does not need many ratios to get this pulling power to the road, or at least, will benefit less from extra ratios. Generally the engines that benefit most are puny, or peaky, or both.

With some of you guys having ridden motorcycles, particularly peaky power units can mean uneven forward progress if the next change up causes your revs to drop below the power band. This band is vey narrow in powerful 2-strokes, anyone who has ridden them will know what I mean.

My theory on this current marketing fad relates to the craze for deriving lots of power, and I mean horse-power, from small units, using high revs and multivalve tweeks and tricks. Look at the power output AND the torque output from these engines. When tuned up, they are making their peak horsepower way up the rev range, and this drags up the torque peak also. Tellingly, a feature they all have, the hp way outstrips the torque figure. The units I am comparing here are bhp and lbs/ft.

A flexible usable engine will have the torque figure around the same as the bhp, and give plenty of torque low down in the range. Any engine where the torque figure far outstrips the horsepower figure will be really quick on the road, and will travel in a very unstressed and relaxed manner. Most of these are turbodiesels and turbo petrol.

So I am theorising that these sixspeeders are coming on stream because the engines are extracting more horsepower out of less capacity these days, and the big loser is torque and pulling power, consequently flexibility.

That is why I think our 4speed auto is nearly ideal, if the damn things didn't keep melting. Here, I am taking fourth gear as an overdrive or motorway gear only, and 1,2 and 3 to be the driving gears. I am hoping someone will devise a reliable supercharger conversion soon to give us maybe 150 lbs/ft more through a beefed up auto. That would be the cream on the pudding.

Joe
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2002, 03:24 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LarryIII
Ron,

Why settle for 7-speeds. Why not go for a Oct-O-Box.
Now 8 speeds would be almost tactor-trailer like.

Audi is playing with the old DAF no-speed tranny. Maybe
no-speeds are the future. Only time will tell.

Larry III

As you may remember, Larry, I had one of those cute little "8 speed" Mitsu/Colt/Champ twin stick hatchbacks about 13 years ago. Mine was an '81 Champ. If you put your mind to it, you could shift seven times getting to forth speed "High" range. Of course it took about 20 seconds to hit 60, but who cares when yer flogging them gears like a cross country trucker. I have fond memories of that car. My daughter got her driver's license in it, & consequently she's only been content with a stick shift. Hey - maybe she's the audience the 6 speed hype is addressed to. Gee, now it all makes sense.
What a country!

Ron.

PS - No speed transmissions? I call your attention to the original Buick Dynaflow of '49 & later. The car had no speed either.
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Good s**t happened. 69 was worth the wait.

'92 stock semi-pristine ebony - 160K
'96 Grand Caravan - 240K
'01 Miata SE - 79K
'07 Chrysler Pacifica - 60k - future money pit.

Last edited by Ron Mummert; 07-06-2002 at 03:29 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2002, 03:29 PM
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The Dodge Colt of the 80's had a four speed with a two speed mixer - 8 forward and 2 reverse - as an option. The engine was fair powered (for the time) and the ratios, if split-shifted, were pretty tightly spaced. It certainly made for a handful of action driving wide open and trying to catch all eight gears.

CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) may have something to do with it, but I'm placing my money on the marketing department...
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Old 07-06-2002, 03:37 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beav
The Dodge Colt of the 80's had a four speed with a two speed mixer - 8 forward and 2 reverse - as an option. The engine was fair powered (for the time) and the ratios, if split-shifted, were pretty tightly spaced. It certainly made for a handful of action driving wide open and trying to catch all eight gears.

CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) may have something to do with it, but I'm placing my money on the marketing department...

Why Beav, it looks like great minds are thinkin' at the same time again. 2 reverse? I must have missed out on trying that little trick.
Gawd, now I'm homesick for that little beast.

Ron.
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Good s**t happened. 69 was worth the wait.

'92 stock semi-pristine ebony - 160K
'96 Grand Caravan - 240K
'01 Miata SE - 79K
'07 Chrysler Pacifica - 60k - future money pit.
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2002, 08:06 PM
Ron Mummert Ron Mummert is offline
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Unhappy Re: Yes Ron, why ?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trevor
[B]Ron, us old fogies must accept that logic does no longer apply. The stylists, the PR brigade the sales dept., and to be frank the bull**** artists hold sway in modern auto design. It must have more numbers, no matter what for, to sell to the gullible public.

Colour (Color) co ordinated bumpers that cost an arm and a leg to restore having been gently scraped or bruised by an ash can, supermarket trolley wooden fence, kids bike or whatever are my pet hate. Remember those chrome bumpers which allowed one to explore a tight space against a fence, wall, or what ever, when squeezing into a tight parking space. I am sure this is the reason for so many who drive off roaders in the city with no intention of going bush or even engaging four wheel drive.



Yeah, Trevor, I assumed a good degree of yuppie "gotta' have it" mentality would leak into any "refinement" that we're presented with by manufacturers who've noticed that they'll sell a lot more "bumpers"
if they'll disintegrate when bumped. It's now the rule to build products to sell at nearly give-away prices like printers, & then rip 'ya good when buying the ink. If automobiles will depreciate quickly enough that a fender-bender will cost more to fix than the car's worth in six years, Viola! We can crush this one & sell 'em a new one. ...and so it goes.

Ron.
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Good s**t happened. 69 was worth the wait.

'92 stock semi-pristine ebony - 160K
'96 Grand Caravan - 240K
'01 Miata SE - 79K
'07 Chrysler Pacifica - 60k - future money pit.

Last edited by Ron Mummert; 07-06-2002 at 10:22 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2002, 09:31 PM
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Ron you are spot on in everything you say even though you and I know we can not change a thing.

The ink and printer bit is a classic. When I last had my cartridge refilled I talked to the woman operating the franchise and she told me that her last customer had purchased a super duper printer sold at a super price but had ash canned it when confronted with the cost of a new cartridge. At least she was wise and did not fall for the manufacturers con. game and continue to be sucked in.

Now the two speeds in reverse in my old Fiat special gave me a lot of fun raising eyes. I was quite adept at going up and down the six ratios without synchro when racing the car and this required double de clutching heel and toe and two leavers. Those where the days, an auto provides little satisfaction.

Interesting regarding your daughterÕs tastes. Mine I also taught to drive properly and she recently changed their family V8 Holden GM Clubsport again insisting on a manual. This is a fairly serious performance vehicle. Her husband mainly drives their hefty FWD which they need to handle their large cabin power boat.

When I last had a ding repaired on the SVX I asked could they strip the paint of the ÒBumpersÓ and leave me with the nice black plastic underneath which the design engineers never wanted painted I am sure. They would not attempt it not knowing if a stripping solvent might damage the plastic. In all this I am tempted to resort to three letter adjectives which I assure you would sprinkle direct conversation.
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2002, 04:59 AM
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Trevor,

Borrow the poweboat. Lash your SVX to the deck and come to the meet. Sail the boat to San Francisco then drive to Laffayette.
Or go through the Panama Canal and sail up the Mississippi River. It's only a short drive to Indiana. Your son-in-law may want to come with you. Especially, if you let him drive your SVX for a bit.


Larry III
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2002, 11:12 PM
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Yes Larry,

If I had not sold my yacht ( sailboat ) , it had ocean going capabability even the though design was for racer cruising, one was sailed here from England, I could take you up on that but would have required a rental SVX on arrival. I would not have aked poor Paragon to carry the car, you know they are a little on the heavy side !

Wouldn't it be great if we could ALL meet some day.
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  #14  
Old 07-08-2002, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beav
The Dodge Colt of the 80's had a four speed with a two speed mixer - 8 forward and 2 reverse - as an option. The engine was fair powered (for the time) and the ratios, if split-shifted, were pretty tightly spaced. It certainly made for a handful of action driving wide open and trying to catch all eight gears.

CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) may have something to do with it, but I'm placing my money on the marketing department...
Hey, them things ROCKED! My one friend in High School had a Turbo with that transmission. One darn nice little car!
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