Engine Bearing Failure - Page 2

Trevor · #16 07-06-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxersix

I was directed towards this thread via PM from Tony. I'll input my "thoughts" behind this and let you take them as needed.

There are many things I can add to this thread and I could sit here all night typing away but I'll hit off on some points that have been brought up first, let you ask questions as needed, and I'll answer as I see them here.

Special thanks for confirming that which I have earlier, but out only briefly pointed out and which was not crap, as has been so often stated by an adversary. I too am open to questions.

Boxersix · #17 07-06-2010, 05:00 PM

I'll post some oil pump findings for you guys later tonight, with side by side comparison pictures to a new EJ257 pump. I tore both pumps apart for you folks today.

Cam · #18 07-06-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxersix

I'll post some oil pump findings for you guys later tonight, with side by side comparison pictures to a new EJ257 pump. I tore both pumps apart for you folks today.

It is appreciated

Boxersix · #19 07-06-2010, 10:48 PM

I'll post oil cooler setup pics first. This one is a weird shot of me trying to show you the sandwich plate under the motor. Hard to get a good shot over the top of my crashbar subframe and skid plate.

Now on to the oil pump.........First let me saw Cosworth is doing exactly what I though they were doing. Just took me this long to prove it

The stock EG33 pump is a 12mm gerotor design. Cosworth is certainly taking the guts form the EG pump and putting them into a machined EJ pump casting (there's plenty of material there)

Other notable /important differences:

-EG 12mm gerotor- EJ 10mm
-EG Scavenge tube .715" ID- EJ .665" ID
-EG feed tube .675" ID- EJ .610" ID
-OPRV dump port larger on EG, as is the return cavity

Realistically the stock pump is about as big as you can go......in the stock housing

More on that later.

Thanks for sharing Adam

Looking forward for moar

dynomatt · #21 07-07-2010, 02:12 AM

Interesting.

So the 12mm pump the NASIOC guys get excited about is the EG33 pump. Which means it's not a viable solution for us.

So...is our only (easyish) option then to shim?

Or can you get 14mm out of it?

M

Boxersix · #22 07-07-2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynomatt

Interesting.

So the 12mm pump the NASIOC guys get excited about is the EG33 pump. Which means it's not a viable solution for us.

So...is our only (easyish) option then to shim?

Or can you get 14mm out of it?

M

For more or less yes, it's an EJ257 pump with EG33 guts.

Shimming the pump, again, is just a bandaid. If the pump cannot cope with the required flow the motor needs up top, then increasing the OPRV setting isn't going to do much good. I mean 20 cents worth of shims can't hurt but it's definitely not a worthwhile solution.

Can I get 14mm out of the pump? Yes, but I don't think I can do it reliably on the stock pump casting. Hence why i've been putting the pump into CAD for possible welding and CNC work(and what i've had in mind for awhile, a possible full billet pump). The inner chambers of the casting have enough material to cut and seat a 14mm gerotor but the forward seal section will require reworking possibly even a shallow shaft seal.

gerotors would need to be EDM wire cut from billet steel. I can do that no issue. What I'd want to look at is whether a change in rotor lobes is a benefit(changing the displacement per rev).

Realistically, even if the pump costs 6-7 hundred per unit, and works, it's still $3-4K USD cheaper than a full dry sump setup that most people will not be able to afford.

More on this later.

XT6Wagon · #23 07-07-2010, 10:37 AM

actualy its the EJ207 oil pump from the JDM dual AVCS engines. Which as you say appears to just be new production of the SVX oil pump.

As far as drysump, have you looked into how much Ford GT (supercar, not mustang) or C6 Corvette Z06 parts would cost?

Dessertrunner · #24 07-07-2010, 01:58 PM

Adam how does our pump flow rate compare to a Porsche oil pump?

Boxersix · #25 07-07-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XT6Wagon

actualy its the EJ207 oil pump from the JDM dual AVCS engines. Which as you say appears to just be new production of the SVX oil pump.

As far as drysump, have you looked into how much Ford GT (supercar, not mustang) or C6 Corvette Z06 parts would cost?

Those are integral dry sump parts(like on the LS7). would be exceedingly difficult to retrofit, and cost far more than a universal pump(like peterson). Good thinking though

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Adam how does our pump flow rate compare to a Porsche oil pump?

Porsche flat six oil pumps far outflow the Eg33 pump. 911 oil pumps are true drysump, with the oil pump located inside the lower forward section of the case and driven directly off the intermediate shaft via a splined coupler shaft(IMS drives the timing chains, pump spins 1/2 crank revs). See pic below of 911 pump(GT3 specifically)

SilverSpear · #26 07-08-2010, 01:21 AM

I just want to throw some ideas here, hope they make sense from the way I see it. I think we need to address the depth of the oil pan for better crank/bearings lubrication same as what has been done on the Impreza RS.

Scroll down the PAGE HERE and you will get a better picture.

Another product I want to mention are Accusumps. I guess mating Adam's cooler with the above idea and THIS can be the solution to our concern.

A third idea would be the dry sump pump with an externally driven belt (to the crankshaft?). I am not the greasemonkey here (Adam is tho), what do you think, can it be done?

Boxersix · #27 07-08-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

I just want to throw some ideas here, hope they make sense from the way I see it. I think we need to address the depth of the oil pan for better crank/bearings lubrication same as what has been done on the Impreza RS.

Scroll down the PAGE HERE and you will get a better picture.

Another product I want to mention are Accusumps. I guess mating Adam's cooler with the above idea and THIS can be the solution to our concern.

A third idea would be the dry sump pump with an externally driven belt (to the crankshaft?). I am not the greasemonkey here (Adam is tho), what do you think, can it be done?

wet sump pan capacity is always a good thing. Oil stays cooler. Depth is not the issue, it's keeping the oil near the pickup. You can only go so far down before safety becomes and issue(ground clearance/impact). Internal baffling and traps doors are what's required. Moroso makes a very nice pan for the EJ motors, all billet with cooling fins, larger capacity, and full baffling/traps doors to keep the oil at the pickup during g-loading.

Accusumps work, but are a failsafe in the event of total engine failure. They're not to be considered as part of the normal oiling system. Typically they should be setup so that if discharged a pressure switch kills the ignition and cuts fuel/spark to the motor because if it discharged you have a major problem. I like accusumps on dry sump setups as they act as a perfect failsafe in the event of a belt breakage(glimer or HTD belt that is)

Def can do a belt drive DS pump. costworth offers a dry sump setup that is majro money. some odd 4-5K. It's not a true DS setup though. It's ONLy a scavenge pump that feeds back to an oil tank. It STILL relies on the stock pump to feed the motor. A true DS pump has multiple scavange sections for various portions of the motor, spitting into an AOS and then the tank, back to a pressure section in the pump, and then to the motor(with various filters/coolers along the way)

The motor that I'm eventually going to be building will be dry sump.

Cam · #28 07-08-2010, 11:16 AM

Does the EJ aftermarket pan fit the EG seiers. I have never seen the bottom of an EJ motor but would guess it would most likely not. Do you know of a company that makes an improved pan for the EG? Or possibly someone that could modify ours?

Boxersix · #29 07-08-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cam

Does the EJ aftermarket pan fit the EG seiers. I have never seen the bottom of an EJ motor but would guess it would most likely not. Do you know of a company that makes an improved pan for the EG? Or possibly someone that could modify ours?

I can easily modify the EG pan, or make billet aftermarket ones to suit you needs. I run/own a race fabrication shop

The EJ and EG have different pan flange patterns, can't swap them.

XT6Wagon · #30 07-08-2010, 12:21 PM

larger oil pans would definitely work well to combat oil starvation in high G situations by giving the engine more time before the oil pump inlet is uncovered.

For a real drysump, wouldn't you need to modify or build a cover for the existing oil pump? Or would it work to just use a low pressure pump to supply oil to the stock pump slightly pressurised which would elimiate the pumping losses of picking the oil up under suction.