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  #16  
Old 06-28-2006, 03:49 PM
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ok in my real world pratical experince the only time cross rotation would be needed is: if you have loose parts and tire cuping is occoring on one side of the tire... or if you for some odd reason make nothing but left or right turns therefore wearing out one side more... really the only point of rotation is to keep your tires wearing evenly... thats why fwd cars need alot of rotations... rears not as much and awd is even less
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  #17  
Old 06-28-2006, 07:56 PM
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Been there, seen it

Even in the days of belted and bias-belted tires there was little reason to cross-rotate tires. As always, perception is singly the most expensive item any of us will ever purchase.

I know everyone has seen the commercials from the '50s, depicting a platoon of ice-cream suited schmucks swarming all over a car that just pulled in for 45¢ of gas. Did your car need all that attention and fuss? Nawwww. Maybe you did but your car didn't. Funny how the movies would show someone with car trouble pulling into a gas station and then only one 'Goober' would shuffle out. Where was the Daytona pit crew then?

Anyway, back to perception and cross-rotation. "Well, helll, we got all his tires off... let's give him the razzle-dazzle and make him think we're on to something nobody else knows about." That's where cross-rotation came from, also see the same idiots that believed the best food came from the truck stop with all the trucks out front. Duhh.... ya think maybe somebody buying 150 gallons of diesel might be more inclined to go where the fuel was 15¢/gallon cheaper?

In case you haven't noticed I'm feeling wordy... . Anyway, when the U.S. tire companies began making radials they didn't know much about them. They soon realized that steel was a good tread stabilizer but they didn't have the knowledge of how to make the rubber stick to the steel. They began having lots and lots of warranty issues with tire separations - where the steel and rubber part company. This was further exacerbated by the 'slight-of-hand' guys cross-rotating tires. The steel/rubber was already parting company in one direction, after being swapped around and forced into revolving in the opposite direction the tires were failing faster than Jethro in Harvard Law School.

After about ten years, the U.S. tire guys finally got a grip on the technology that Michelin had sewed-up forty years earlier. Steel was now sticking to rubber and cross-rotating was no longer destroying radials. But..... it was also not doing a dang thing other than impressing the natives. Liken it to an early urban myth that has been perpetuated by the blind leading the blind.

And that's all I got to say about that.
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Last edited by Beav; 06-28-2006 at 07:59 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-28-2006, 08:10 PM
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people still buy non directional tires?
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  #19  
Old 06-29-2006, 04:59 AM
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Well said Beav

Hey how did Jethro even graduate high school??...
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  #20  
Old 06-29-2006, 05:47 AM
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Took the car back to have the rears swapped late yesterday and the guy asked, "Wat'd I do? I always cross'em." I pointed out that little L by the valve stem and he said yeah, he should have noticed that. I'm kinda ashamed that I didn't even notice 'til the next morning. Good thing there aren't any other SVX drivers in this area to point and laugh...

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  #21  
Old 06-29-2006, 09:44 AM
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we don't laugh anymore we are quick to go to the backhand...quick little slaps...nyuk, nyuk, nyuk....
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  #22  
Old 06-29-2006, 06:02 PM
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Tires aside, does the direction that the rim is spinning actually matter? I know that when half are on backwards, it looks silly, but does it affect the car in any other way?
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2006, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis Destiny
Tires aside, does the direction that the rim is spinning actually matter? I know that when half are on backwards, it looks silly, but does it affect the car in any other way?
Some may suggest it has to do with brake cooling, but I doubt it makes one bit of difference.

dcb
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2006, 03:16 PM
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Directional wheels are supposed to evacuate air from under the car but the SVX wheels don't do much of that. Spinning at 80 on the rack yields little air flow, to the inside or outside.
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  #25  
Old 07-01-2006, 11:06 AM
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AHH HA i knew it!
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  #26  
Old 07-03-2006, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suby Fan
ok in my real world pratical experince the only time cross rotation would be needed is: if you have loose parts and tire cuping is occoring on one side of the tire
Which means that you then swap a partially ruined tyre (sorry: British spelling - it's my language, so I won't be changing my spelling anytime soon) to a "good" position and swap a good tyre to a position where it's soon going to be ruined too.

After a each rotation all of your tyres suffer accelerated wear as they bed themselves in to work effectively in their new position.

So why rotate your tyres

It equalises wear - (some people think this is a good idea! ), and for that reason all your tyres will need replacement at the same time.

Reasons not to rotate your tyres

Your tyres wear to accommodate the camber, castor, toe-in/out etc. of their installed position. During this bedding in process, wear is particularly rapid until it maximises the amount of rubber actually in contact with the road surface. Once the tyre has worn down to the correct working profile the rate of wear decreases, and then becomes much more related to the work that the tyre is called upon to do in service.

Solely front wheel drive cars go through their front wheel tyres much, much, faster than the rears for exactly this reason, as all of the drive, and most of the braking and cornering forces are fed through this end of the car and put much more stress and wear on the front tyres. This is not a reason to rotate the tyres however!

Once you have a set of tyres that have bedded in to work at a particular position on the car, moving them to another position merely sets them up for a period of accelerated wear whilst they bed themselves in to work effectively in their new position. During this time be prepared for decreased grip too!

If you have an alignment problem leading to excessive tyre wear, get it fixed, as tyre rotation only masks the problem (and not particularly well either).

So to summarise, tyre rotation wears your tyres out faster,
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2006, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsPeteReally
(sorry: British spelling - it's my language, so I won't be changing my spelling anytime soon)
Never apologise for this. You guys invented the language, you have every right to insist that yours in, in fact, the correct spelling, and that everyone else is wrong.


Quote:
Reasons not to rotate your tyres

Solely front wheel drive cars go through their front wheel tyres much, much, faster than the rears for exactly this reason, as all of the drive, and most of the braking and cornering forces are fed through this end of the car and put much more stress and wear on the front tyres. This is not a reason to rotate the tyres however!

Once you have a set of tyres that have bedded in to work at a particular position on the car, moving them to another position merely sets them up for a period of accelerated wear whilst they bed themselves in to work effectively in their new position. During this time be prepared for decreased grip too!

If you have an alignment problem leading to excessive tyre wear, get it fixed, as tyre rotation only masks the problem (and not particularly well either).

So to summarise, tyre rotation wears your tyres out faster,
The only problem I see with this is in snow season, where ideally, you'd like to have as much usable tread as possible on the front wheels of a front wheel drive vehicle. This is mostly a problem because most people are too cheap to invest in a set of four snow tires (or, tyres, if you prefer ). They then wonder why their balding all-seasons fail to gain them any traction.

Is the concept of using the right tool for the right job really so difficult? All-seasons are essentially crap; they're like those silly multi-purpose 1000-in-1 tools. Sure, they technically can do anything, but it will take twice the effort.

I'm not going to turn this into a rant however, so I'll stop now
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1992 LS-L Touring, Liquid Silver w/ Black, 110k mi. "Alice." Rebuilt title. Mods: WRX 6-CD changer, 17x8" Motegi LC-12 (16.5lbs), PWR rad, Perrin LCP, JDM v.8 6MT + R180, Koni + Ground Control (325f/280r), Earthworm Bushings. Awaiting resto.
1994 LSI The legendary "Shotgun Slade" 110k mi and still going strong!

2005 Outback XT Limited 5MT, Obsidian Black Pearl, 211k km, daily driver.
1999 Mazda MX5 base 5MT, Twilight Blue Metallic, 152k km. "Twilight Sparkle" Summer daily driver!
2007 Honda CR-V, some awful shade of light green *yawn*

1992 LS-L Touring, Ebony Mica, 176k kms. Parts car. SCRAPPED.
1992 LS-L, Dark Teal, 367k km. "Wintergreen" the winter beater.*SCRAPPED due to rust*
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  #28  
Old 07-03-2006, 07:29 AM
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Ontario eh!

It must get pretty cold there, and I imagine the problem is more one of ice than of snow. Getting anything to grip on ice is pretty much impossible I would have thought, the only solution is presumably a good set of studs (or chains if you want to drive really slowly).

I have to think a good few years back for really heavy snow memories, then it was so bad that nobody was going anywhere, (drifts 10ft deep) and consequently we were snowed in for a week

When weather gets like that all bets are off!

Under somewhat milder conditions, being able to bite down through the snow to the road surface underneath is sufficient. I was driving a Citroen at the time, and with the suspension jacked up it was only me and the odd Landrover driving out and about through the snow. Lesser vehicles became stranded as the snow (a mere 9 inches or so deep) caused low ground clearance vehicles to become mere toboggans with the wheels no longer in contact with the ground.

When it gets icy it gets really frightening, AWD may help you get going, but it does nothing to help you steer or stop!

Driving a subie under such conditions certainly sharpens up the reflexes as I had no idea which end of the car was likely to break away first!

Take it easy up there!
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2006, 07:36 PM
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There are some truly acceptable reasons for rotation. Not all tire wear can be compensated for by alignment or balance. Traction tires (tyres, for those that refuse to read/spell without noting the differences between regions ) with large lugs will develop raised edges, with accompanying noise/vibration that can be minimized by rotation. This also goes for 'spirited drivers' that tend to wear their outer edges due to hard cornering. Likewise for less expensive, uni-directional 'sport' ti/yres with block style tread.

Then there's the 'why buy four at a time when you can bypass rotations and only buy two at a time' argument. That's fine, no problem whatsoever. But what if your ti/yres are discontinued? And what if the ti/yres you bought suck and you want to try somehing else? Pitch two half-worn ti/yres? AWD dictates four ti/yres within .25" circumference. Danged difficult to do that without rotations.

Some day I'll have to query the ex' missus for the pics of my first SVX in Colorado. Our driveway (@7800') was 350' of 8%+ grade. Somewhere are pics of the SVX going up the driveway, pushing snow over the hood. I'm sure Tom in Evergreen recalls the storm, we had in '94 or so - 48" in 36 hours.

heheheheh
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Last edited by Beav; 07-03-2006 at 07:42 PM.
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