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  #1  
Old 02-25-2003, 01:49 AM
James Scott James Scott is offline
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Angry "Manual MANIA" #@%*#@*&#@*!!!

I buy shop manuals for any car I buy. Not that I'll necessarily use alot or most of it, but it helps with some simpler tasks (like rear bearings on the SVX), has torque specs, real helpful when I installed an aftermarket alarm (Subaru stock module no longer available!) AND I can loan it to a mechanic to help when fixing my vehicle.

Just recently, I began checking out the electrical schematics and the troubleshooting guides found in the (Dealer) Subaru ($200.) multi-volume shop manual, after some suggestions in that direction from Svxistentialist and others. I have to say:

I AM APPALLED AT THE INCREDIBLE LACK OF QUALITY CONTROL, PRIDE OF WORKMANSHIP AND GENERALIZED SLOP THAT THIS SUBARU COMPANY SHOP MANUAL CONTAINS!!!!!!!!

IN THE TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE SECTION, I HAVE FOUND ABOUT ONE TYPO EVERY OTHER PAGE!!!!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!! NOW I'M TRYING TO DO A DETAILED ANALYSIS FOR RESISTANCE, CONTINUITY AND VOLTAGE, AND I'M TO DIVINE CORRECTIONS TO THE MANUAL BEFORE I PROCEED!!!!!!!!

[EXAMPLE: It says (page 53) to check connector B59 (has 22 terminals) by crossing terminals 24 and 25 to Body to verify 0 ohms! That's not to hard to correct (B62 correct connector), but others are more complicated and more dangerous (to ignore consequences of connecting the wrong terminals to ground or voltage). Under the Bypass Air-Control Solenoid Valve section, it tells me to connect a (GROUND) terminal (B62 terminal 14) to the Body and look for more than 10 volts!!!!!!

I'm sure when I fry my ECU with one of their erroneous tests, someone from Subaru will rush a new one over to my house, at no cost. . . . . RIGHT?!

What kind of junk are they willing to sell under the Subaru name?

Any explanation (satanic assemby line worker put mine together) or comments are welcome.

THANKS
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Last edited by James Scott; 02-25-2003 at 02:00 AM.
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  #2  
Old 02-25-2003, 09:28 AM
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Are the shop manuals for regular people like us or for Subaru technicians? If they are just for Suby technicians, then "they" are probably trained on the correct connector issue.

L
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  #3  
Old 02-25-2003, 09:39 AM
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Lwin, I just received my FSM set (minus two volumes, which are on backorder), and it's clear that they are not written for the end user.

Not only that, but this is a manual for a car which was produced in very limited quantity.
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  #4  
Old 02-25-2003, 12:29 PM
Green1995SVX
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I agree. I have the FSM's as well, and they are not writen for anyone but the subaru techs who have special training.

Mike
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2003, 05:15 PM
95LSi
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Do you folks who have plunked down the $200 or so for the FSMs feel they are truly worth the investment? It seems that even if they are written for the a 'trained' mechanic with the odd mistake here or there they certainly beat nothing. Although that is a lot of dosh that could easily be spent on other more exciting things, like wheel bearings.

Just wondering.

Michael
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2003, 06:50 PM
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svx_commuter svx_commuter is offline
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Yes you are correct it is calling out the wrong connector. However, as you know from the looking at the diagram, B59 is the correct connector. This would lead one to examine the connector closely before putting any leads into the holes.

I have added a few leads to the TCU and the other part of this that is very confusing is the diagram of the connector itself. One has to be careful when identifing the wires because it is not clear if it was drawn looking at the connector from the front or the back.

Figure 52 will get you in trouble fast because it does not have the connector pin locations. Figure 45 shows the pin numbers and also the six ground connectors.

Just looking at this section and thinking about making all of these checks makes me shy away. It would take a long time to check all of these while hanging upside down under the dash trying to a test lead to connect on the back of the connector.

I also checked the suppliment and corrections volume. The error is not picked up.
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2003, 12:57 AM
James Scott James Scott is offline
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Exclamation Mistaken Identity!

Yes, these manuals are primarily written for mechanics and techs, but that does not explain the problem I address! These sections (troubleshooting guide and schematics) are very technical, even for the expert tech! If there is a substantive error on every other page, how is the tech, even with all his/her expert knowledge/experience supposed to divine the error (sometimes not as obvious as the ones I exampled earlier here) BEFORE PERFORMING THE ERRONEOUS TEST!!!

Just because the manuals are written primarily for trained mechanics, in no way justifies Subaru putting out the piece of garbage I'm trying to use to diagnose my SVX!

I still cannot believe that Subaru would stoop to printing such an inferior and potentially damaging product without a serious attempt to correct in a corrections edition or a reprint. There is just absolutely no excuse!

In my limited amateur shade tree mechanic experience, I have purchased and referred to dealer shop manuals for a 1986 Isuzu Turbo Impulse, a 1992 Camaro RS 5.0, a 2002 Camaro SS (35th), and a (translated/copied) abbreviated version for our 1975 308 GT4 (Dino) Ferrari. Never have I even experienced a simple typo in any of these manuals, let alone the plethora of inaccuracies I've (ALREADY) discovered in my SVX publication!

As one of you pointed out, it's a little tidious to prop oneself under the dash to check alot of these voltages/resistances at very specific terminals. HOW MUCH WORSE THAN THAT TO BE ALSO CHECKING THE WRONG LEADS WHICH WOULD YIELD ERRONEOUS INFORMATION/CONCLUSIONS AND POSSIBLY DAMAGING INTRICATE CIRCUITRY SUCH AS THE ECU!!!

PLEASE someone tell me there is a real manual with the correct information for my vehicle . . . . Please tell me Subaru is not the schlock organization they appear to be to me now! It's bad enough that they would hide the part number for the rear bearing upgrade to protect their investment in poorly engineered stock bearings, but if this is acceptable workmanship for their organization . . . . . THEN I don't want to be driving this vehicle at 30 mph down any road, let alone the 100 to 110 mph I've been driving it lately!

BOTTOM LINE: I'd be on the streets (as oppossed to WORKING) if I performed any where near that poorly in my profession.
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1995 Laguna Blue SVX AWD L - 240K (daily driver) - "ReBuILT" used engine at 236K miles (6/13)
2013 Veloster Red - Driver Now??Dropsprings [1/2" rear, 1" front] with Koni Strut Inserts> Magnaflow Exhaust System> ECUTune Stage 1av1 Upgrade (from 1v4)> ECUTune TCU MOD> Aluminum Crankshaft Pulley> Stainless Brake Lines> Phenolic Spacers> Perforated Brake Rotors (dint like, OEM now)> SmallCar Shift Kit (resting since TCU MOD)> 7-Position Ground System> High-Pressure Fuel Pressure Regulator (resting)> ATF Cooler & Campaign Filter> Yellow Polish Polyurethane Bushings> Pioneer Double-DIN Stereo with JL AUDIO Speakers> Driveshaft Rebuilt with C-Clip U-Joints> 15 Min MOD> 20 Min MOD .. . (2011)
Valentine One Radar Detector with Remote Display - ucan'tseeme!

Last edited by James Scott; 02-26-2003 at 01:03 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-28-2003, 10:02 AM
lee lee is offline
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I don't own the FSM so can't comment on the quality.

Does anybody know if Alldata or Mitchell's is better?
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  #9  
Old 02-28-2003, 11:15 AM
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Beav Beav is offline
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Since you've asked me to reply...

Geez, take a Xanax. Getting all worked up over this isn't going to fix your car. If you hate the manuals take them back for a refund. I've been doing this for thirty-three years and I can tell you that ALL manuals have errors. The more complicated the system, the thicker the manual, the more errors that will be found. This is just part of what makes a "stupid mechanic" stupid.

There's a lot more to repairing a car than reading a how-to in a book. There's no way anyone can anticipate everything that can possibly go wrong and write an article about how to fix it. I do a lot of driveability problems and I can assure you that a major portion of my day is spent on devising ways to detect and/or test various circuits, sensors, control units, yadda, yadda, yadda. Yeah, I ***** when there's an error in a manual, and it's usually wiring changes. But I know that getting bent out of shape will only slow me down and ruin my attitude.

Most good mechanics don't use manuals for how-tos, they look for circuit diagrams, component locators and TSBs. That probably explains why errors go by without corrections - we don't normally spend much time on the text. If I find a device that has a different color wire in its connector than what is indicated I'll disconnect both ends of the circuit to reduce the possibility of damaging a device and then check for continuity. If it has continuity I'll make a note for future reference, if it doesn't I'll probably step back for a minute and decide if I want to spend the time peeling that circuit.

Hint: Unless someone has been hacking into wires on the car, or if it has been in an accident, etc., the wiring is usually not a problem. Sometimes, however, connections can fall prey to corrosion. It might be in your best interest to find and clean all the ground attaching points on the engine and under the hood. Personally I think you're barking up the wrong tree, You really need to use a GMM or 'scope and check the affected cylinder(s) at the coil(s) and injector(s) when the roughness occurs.

BTW - Alladata and Mitchell (as most every publisher does) builds their info from the FSMs supplied by each OEM. If there's an error in the FSM it's likely to be in their info also.
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  #10  
Old 02-28-2003, 07:20 PM
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Jim, Sorry to have to say this but you are spending far too much time punching your key board rather than expending all your effort systematically following the advice many have spent a great deal of time and effort preparing for you, in spite of having been provided with far from exact information regarding your problem. Please read all you have been told again, do some homework and start again.

I appreciate that I am sticking my neck out in saying these things but sometimes one must be cruel to be kind and I am trying to help in the best wayt possible. Put away the frustration and bring on the logic in the knowledge that we all wish you well knowing that luck is not of any help.
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  #11  
Old 02-28-2003, 11:39 PM
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Post FSM's vs correctness

I'm relatively new to the forum and after reading your post, I can agree with some, that you are in need of a BC Powder. Get past the negative and think. I spent twenty years in the military working on technical bulletins for field use.

The major information comes from the manufacturer. Then we spent months re-writing their specs that someone on the flightline could understand at 0300 hours. Guess what, if the flight line crew chief doesn't call and tell you that it's all B.S., then you have performed well.

Feedback is the key. If the Subaru tech doesn't report the problem with the FSM, then Japan doesn't (or in this case didn't) correct the problem, then you end up with a frustrating set of FSMs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Good luck with your diagnostic problem.
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2003, 04:14 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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I've a set of SM and find them invaluable, We would never have known about the different transmissions that there are, among other things.

If you think these are bad you haven't lived very long. You obviously have not tried to follow the early JAP bike SMs. Not only did they have faults, the English translation allways compounded the problem.

Harvey.
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Old 03-01-2003, 05:41 PM
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Harvey,

I had SAAB & Datsun shop manuals. Some of the English (American ?) translation phrases were down right funny.
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  #14  
Old 03-01-2003, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beav
...snip...
BTW - Alladata and Mitchell (as most every publisher does) builds their info from the FSMs supplied by each OEM. If there's an error in the FSM it's likely to be in their info also.
Thanks Beav. I wondered, and you had the answer I suspected.
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  #15  
Old 03-02-2003, 07:46 AM
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