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  #61  
Old 10-09-2002, 05:20 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by $VX
[B].

. CHRYSLER was one of the first to produce an consumer automobile engine with a hemispherical head (hemispherical heads were first found to produce more power during WW2 in airplanes.

> There are probably about 20 car and bike makers around the world that used the hemispherical combustion chamber before WW2 <


The other reason the hemi was so important was that the valves are actually ANGLED into the head, which is STILL pretty damn good compared to modern engines.


> The hemispherical combustion chamber is not used any more. It's dirty, inefficient and prone to detonation. The four valve pent sided chamber sounded it's demise. <

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  #62  
Old 10-09-2002, 05:44 PM
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And, to set the record straight, the actual line is:

"Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription ... is more cowbell!"



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  #63  
Old 10-09-2002, 05:50 PM
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Ca$h, i think you could be a useful contributor to these forums, and people might actually enjoy these online conversations with you if you didn't respond like a jag-off most of the time. you seem to think when people ask questions its a personal attack on you. lighten up.....and don't ever join the military. they really yell at you there.
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  #64  
Old 10-09-2002, 05:51 PM
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Ok now that maybe we can argue like adults, I will re-enter this. I understand, Ca$h, that you are a MOPAR nut. That's fine. To each his own...and I enjoy a constructive argument, probably cause I am darn good at it, but I am also respectful in the way that I argue. I expect the same from you. We all do. I continue visiting this forum because of the respectful bunch that resides here, and I don't think that anyone here wants that to change. So let's keep it nice, ok?

While there is no doubt that HEMI engines are beasts, it wasn't until aftermarket companies got ahold of those engines that they became venerable. The HEMIs that chrysler put in there 1st gen musclecars were extremely high maintenance, very inefficient and unreliable. Thus the reason they were scrapped as production units.

Also, you mention Chrysler's short stint in early NASCAR racing. They were banned, yes. But not because of their winning races, but because they were doing it with engines that did not meet the requirements. Back then they had regulations stating engine specs down to Bore & stroke. These were unattainable with the HEMI design. Hence their dissapearance from the NASCAR circuit. If you are to say that they should have been allowed to run the HEMIs, then you must allow for Chevy to run it's L88s and L87s which would have DESTROYED the HEMIs (plus they would have made it through the WHOLE race, and be able to race again the next week without a rebuild). Truth is, through their first generation of production, the CAMAROS ruled the NASCAR circuit...and they did it within the rules. The 302ci Z28 was the car used, and it consistently beat out much larger V8s, and lasted longer. Driven by none other than Roger Penske, it took championship titles from 1967-1969.

In drag racing, the ZL-1 Camaros driven by Bill Jenkins and Ben Wenzel took championship titles from 1967-1970. In 1971, rule changes eliminated both the ZL-1 motor, and the HEMIs from NHRA sanctioned races. Jerks.

So there you go. You think MOPAR rules, and you showed us why. I think Chevy rules, and I showed you why.
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  #65  
Old 10-09-2002, 06:10 PM
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You are all forgetting the real reason why the hemi rules - Bo and Luke Duke and the General Lee!!
(although I did read that alot of the shows cars did not actually have a hemi in them)

Hemi's rule because Hazard county was ruled by the general lee. The fords and chevys didn't stand a chance against the orange rocket because no other engine is better. Roscoe, Cletus, and even Boss Hogg himself couldn't ever catch them dang Duke boys - all because of the hemi. That is the real reason why all dragsters use a hemi.




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  #66  
Old 10-10-2002, 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Shadow248
So let's keep it nice, ok?

deal.

While there is no doubt that HEMI engines are beasts, it wasn't until aftermarket companies got ahold of those engines that they became venerable.

Wrong. Hemicudas were turning 13s on crappy biasply tires. These engines were ALWAYS king of the hill. I have a whole book on hemis, just the history of them- not rebuilding or anything. For its debut, the 426 Race hemi swept the 1964 Daytona 500. That's just the beginning. Even in STOCK form, it will destroy almost anything GM or FORD has to offer. The aftermarket companies latched onto the hemi for a reason- it was the BEST V8. If the 454 or whatever had been better, they'd be using those in dragsters. Hell, its a LOT cheaper. But they didn't. They chose the hemi for a reason.


The HEMIs that chrysler put in there 1st gen musclecars were extremely high maintenance, very inefficient and unreliable.

High maintenance, yes. Inefficient and unreliable? No way. Extremely reliable IF you do the periodic valve lashing. I'd like to see you back up these claims; til then, I'll ignore them.

Thus the reason they were scrapped as production units.

Wrong again. The last year Chrysler was stuffing hemis in their production cars was 1971. That was the last year of the true musclecar era. With fuel shortages & outrageous insurance costs, the musclecar was dying. Chevy also ditched their extremely high performance vehicles as well. From 72-74, all the engines were detuned, and performance packages became more of 'appearance packages'.

Also, you mention Chrysler's short stint in early NASCAR racing. They were banned, yes. But not because of their winning races, but because they were doing it with engines that did not meet the requirements.

Wrong. They met requirements just fine. Back in the 60s, everyone was running big blocks. The B and R/B wedge engines weren't doing so hot in Nascar, so thats one of the reason why the hemi was created. In 1964 the Hemi debuted at the daytona 500. The first SEVEN starting positions were either dodges or plymouths, out of a field of 46 cars. The finish? A 1-2-3 sweep with another in 5th, and 9th. The hemi cars set a new average speed record of 153.334mph.

Back then they had regulations stating engine specs down to Bore & stroke. These were unattainable with the HEMI design. Hence their dissapearance from the NASCAR circuit.

Wrong. What was happening was the cars were becoming TOO fast. With extremely aerodynamic bodies and hemis, the 69 Daytona and 70 Superbird were obliterating the competition. One of the reasons was a safety concern. Bill France (a nascar big guy) put a stop to the aero cars and high speeds by limiting the displacement of ALL nascar engines to 305 cubic inches. The Hemi was a 426, and changing the CID that much would have to result in a complete redesign. The hemi dissappeared from the nascar circuit right along side of all the other manufacturer's big blocks.

If you are to say that they should have been allowed to run the HEMIs, then you must allow for Chevy to run it's L88s and L87s which would have DESTROYED the HEMIs (plus they would have made it through the WHOLE race, and be able to race again the next week without a rebuild).

Just like those L88s and whatever else ultra rare yenko Type R one of 3 engines you speak of are beating up hemis in drag racing eh? Wait. They aren't. Hrm. Wonder why? >scratches head< Anyway, every engine was tore down completely after a nascar race. No racing team in their right mind would EVER trust an engine for 2 races. Now you're just spouting crap man.

Truth is, through their first generation of production, the CAMAROS ruled the NASCAR circuit...and they did it within the rules. The 302ci Z28 was the car used, and it consistently beat out much larger V8s, and lasted longer. Driven by none other than Roger Penske, it took championship titles from 1967-1969.

Can you back this up? I haven't ever heard of camaros being much of a threat.

In drag racing, the ZL-1 Camaros driven by Bill Jenkins and Ben Wenzel took championship titles from 1967-1970. In 1971, rule changes eliminated both the ZL-1 motor, and the HEMIs from NHRA sanctioned races. Jerks.

NO WAY. The cars to beat were the Chryslers. Ever heard of the 1968 Hemi Cuda or Hemi dart? We're talking about the world's nastiest meanest production cars that ordinary people could actually go out and buy. We're talking cars that were shipped in PRIMER. You bought them in primer. The windows? Plexiglass. The doors? Acid dipped. The fenders? Aluminum. These beasts were easily the fastest cars out there, and to this DAY are almost unbeatable in their class.

So there you go. You think MOPAR rules, and you showed us why. I think Chevy rules, and I showed you why.

You've shown me nothing. Everything I just said here can be backed up. Before typing this, I just got my hemi book. "Musclecar Color History: HEMI" by motorbooks international. Pretty book. Anyway, Chevy had some good big blocks. FOR ME TO POOP ON!

- Ca$h
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  #67  
Old 10-10-2002, 10:10 AM
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This is getting so old.
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  #68  
Old 10-10-2002, 03:35 PM
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Hrrmm

Someone needs to put a Chrysler Hemi into an SVX.
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  #69  
Old 10-10-2002, 03:47 PM
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I just think "someone" needs to put a sock in it.
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  #70  
Old 10-10-2002, 07:07 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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WRONG

Even in STOCK form, it will destroy almost anything GM or FORD has to offer. The aftermarket companies latched onto the hemi for a reason- it was the BEST V8. If the 454 or whatever had been better, they'd be using those in dragsters. Hell, its a LOT cheaper. But they didn't. They chose the hemi for a reason.

WRONG. Show me one instance where a 426 HEMI beat an L88 or ZL-1. You can't. The instances you mention were in 1964 and 1965. Chevy didn't even have a V8 racecar other than the vette (DQed - 2 seater) until 1967. The HEMI may have ruled before 67, but it didn't stand a chance in endurance races against the Z28. Penske's team won the 1967 and 1968 daytona 500s, with Camaros finishing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Mark Donahue took home the Championship in 1969 with his Penske Camaro.

High maintenance, yes. Inefficient and unreliable? No way. Extremely reliable IF you do the periodic valve lashing. I'd like to see you back up these claims; til then, I'll ignore them.

WRONG. They were high maintenance, inefficient, AND unreliable. Want proof? Ask any mechanic who ever worked on one. They require constant maintenance, they guzzle gas like my Irish grandfather guzzled beer, and they often never even finished races which they entered. In the 1967 daytona 500, 4 of the 7 chryslers in the race didn't finish. Go ahead, look that up. I come from a family full of car guys of all sorts. I've built entire engines, and raced them. By contrast, ask any mechanic who ever worked on chevy's small block V8. They'll tell you it's one of the best engine designs out there. Why else would GM keep it in service for almost 30 years?

In 1964 the Hemi debuted at the daytona 500. The first SEVEN starting positions were either dodges or plymouths, out of a field of 46 cars. The finish? A 1-2-3 sweep with another in 5th, and 9th. The hemi cars set a new average speed record of 153.334mph.

In 1964, the camaro wasn't even thought of yet. However, in 1967, it made it's first Daytona 500 run, and did it's first of several 1-2-3 sweeps with Roger Penske, Mark Donahue, and another party who is strangely not mentioned in the book, driving. In that race it set a NEW Average Speed Record of 160mph.

What was happening was the cars were becoming TOO fast. With extremely aerodynamic bodies and hemis, the 69 Daytona and 70 Superbird were obliterating the competition. One of the reasons was a safety concern. Bill France (a nascar big guy) put a stop to the aero cars and high speeds by limiting the displacement of ALL nascar engines to 305 cubic inches.

Funny you should say this, because at the time you speak of, camaros held the Average speed record. They were the Z28s...strange, that's only a 302!

Just like those L88s and whatever else ultra rare yenko Type R one of 3 engines you speak of are beating up hemis in drag racing eh? Wait. They aren't. Hrm. Wonder why? >scratches head< Anyway, every engine was tore down completely after a nascar race.

WRONG. L88s, L87s, ZL-1s, and the Z28s were all built in house at GM plants and were available in the showroom. As i stated before, the ZL-1 took NHRA championships from 1967-1970. Go ahead, look it up, it's not hard. NASCAR engines will only undergo a complete rebuild after a race if it is deemed necessary. Most times only the top end of the engine is even touched, and then usually it's just for a head gasket replacement and valvetrain check. I know this cause i have done it. Engines in oval track racing are endurance units, they are generally not touched between races for anything other than routine (racing) maintenance for fear that changing anything could be disaster, especially after a successful weekend. In drag racing engines are usually rebuilt after EVERY RUN. Teams generally have 8 or more engines and swap them out between runs.

Can you back this up? I haven't ever heard of camaros being much of a threat.

I thought you knew your racing? Anyone who knows the history of oval track racing knows the Camaro and it's legendary abilities on the track. I got most of my information for this post from a book which details the history of the Camaro. CAMARO, by Anthony Young, MBI publishing 2000. Also useful: NASCAR RACING, Various authors, SpeedZone Publishing 1998. That and my own knowledge along with my family's racing experience are the basis for my remarks. Basically you could look up racing anywhere and get the same info.

NO WAY. The cars to beat were the Chryslers. Ever heard of the 1968 Hemi Cuda or Hemi dart? We're talking about the world's nastiest meanest production cars that ordinary people could actually go out and buy. We're talking cars that were shipped in PRIMER. You bought them in primer. The windows? Plexiglass. The doors? Acid dipped. The fenders? Aluminum. These beasts were easily the fastest cars out there, and to this DAY are almost unbeatable in their class.

My brother's 1969 SS396 (L87) has, on at least 3 occasions, smoked his friend's 1971 Charger (426). And it costs alot less to fix, he can do it himself, and it gets much better gas mileage (marginal by todays standards, but phenomenal in it's day). Nastiest and meanest production cars? What about the 1967 Vette 427SC, or the 1967 Shelby Cobra 427? Nuff said.

You've shown me nothing. Everything I just said here can be backed up. Before typing this, I just got my hemi book. "Musclecar Color History: HEMI" by motorbooks international. Pretty book. Anyway, Chevy had some good big blocks. FOR ME TO POOP ON!

I would say I have shown you undeniable proof. But I know it's not going to change either of our opinions. I just enjoy a good healthy car discussion, and I hope you do to. If you plan to poop on a chevy big block, remember this: you'll need to catch it first...and if you plan to do that, your HEMIs aren't quite going to cut it.

That being said I will no longer bore the rest of this board with my useless knowledge. Sorry. (closes door).
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  #71  
Old 10-10-2002, 07:38 PM
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Those L87's are one of my favorite GM engines...396ci, 375HP (later considered to have 410HP). My dad loves his 1969 Nova SS but has been running a super strong 350ci in it for the last 20 years.
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  #72  
Old 10-10-2002, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earthworm
Those L87's are one of my favorite GM engines...396ci, 375HP (later considered to have 410HP). My dad loves his 1969 Nova SS but has been running a super strong 350ci in it for the last 20 years.
My sister's boyfriend, in high school, bought a brand new '69 Camaro Z28 RS for his first car. After he totalled it, he replaced it with a brand new solid black 69 Nova SS. A couple of very sharp rides, indeed. Another friend of my sister's bought a brand new Chevelle 396 SS. We almost bought the farm in that sucker when he was driving a bunch of us to Beech Bend Park for a day of fun. That was back in the heyday of Beech Bend, when the Winston Cup drags were being held there. The drags were fun, but the figure eight races were more interesting.
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  #73  
Old 10-11-2002, 12:19 AM
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not wanting ford to get pushed asid

The 427 SOHC I spoke of earlier that $VX neglected to mention makes over 600hp on gasoline and was introduced to the public market the 66 model year. It featured 6 (4 bolt main with cross bolts) bolt main bearings, Fords only true hemispherical combustion chamber (the 429s are not true hemis), forged steel cross drilled crank, hollow stem valves the exhaust is sodium filled. The rest is mostly similar to the 427 side oiler other than a few special passages in the block to carry oil back from the heads.

This is the engine I would like to have in my 67 mustang.

Hey this really is a stupid arguement. All of the Big 3 have had success in racing.
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  #74  
Old 10-11-2002, 08:16 AM
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More on the Ford 427 Cammer

Without a doubt the most powerful engine ever made, the Ford 427 Cammer was developed with the intention of taking on Chrysler's Hemis. Ford gave the 427 block new heads with hemispherical combustion chambers. To cap that, they fitted overhead camshafts -- one per cylinder bank -- which gave the engine its name and allowed it to rev to an unheard of 7,500 rpm. With the regular single four barrel carb, the "cammer" put out 616 bhp, but with dual four-barrels, it produced a massive 657 bhp. With this kind of power, the "cammer" 427 was totally unsuitable for street use. These engines were not sold to the general public, but about 50 examples were built, mostly for professional drag racers. Because of the low production volumes, NASCAR refused to accept the engine as a regular production option, and thus Ford couldn't use the engine to combat the Hemi's. This sealed this engine's fate and Ford discontinued it after 1965.

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Last edited by rally; 10-11-2002 at 09:35 AM.
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  #75  
Old 10-11-2002, 08:21 AM
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Cobra Replicar Builders are scanning boatyards for these engines, many of which were used as powerplants in upscale power boats.
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