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  #91  
Old 01-23-2006, 09:18 PM
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I'm sure it's because people just don't remember what they did when they did their wiring when they are making their posts but I haven't seen any detailed description of how people have wired what for their manual transmission conversions. It might help.

I don't see any wiring that tells the ecu that the car is in the d range. For that matter I don't see any wiring that tells the ecu that the trans is in any range other than p or n. There are 3 wires which go to the ecu from the inhibitor switch on the 4eat. These are pins c10, b9, and b10. Pin b9 tells the ecu that the transmisison is in park. Pin b10 tells the ecu that the transmission is in nuetral.

Pin c10 tells the ecu that you are starting the car. c10 is a by colored wire in the ecu harness and is part of the starter interupt circuit of the 4eat. It should never see power except for when the igntion key is being turned to start the car, as such it should be on a seperate circuit from the nuetral wire. Is it possible some of you are sending power to this pin everytime you press the clutch?

Pin B9 tells the ecu that the transission is in park. I don't see any reason you would ever want to tell the ecu that the transmission you don't have is in park.

Pin b10 tells the ecu that the transmission is in neutral. I'll check on this tomorrow to be sure but I imagine connecting this to power whenever the clutch is pushed will prevent the fuel cut on decelleration.
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  #92  
Old 01-23-2006, 09:53 PM
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There were some logs I wanted to get off the laptop so as long as I was in the car anyway I went ahead and checked. The neutral signal does dissable the fuel cut during decell. So the correct wiring is for the clutch to control 2 circuits which must be wired seperately. One circuit completes the ignition start signal to both the ecu and the starter. The 2nd circuit tells the ecu the car is in nuetral whenever the clutch is pushed.
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  #93  
Old 01-24-2006, 12:15 AM
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For the first couple months after the 5MT went into my car, I drove my car with neither the park pin nor the neutral pin grounded, and the car would stall. For the last 1.5 years, I've been driving with the neutral pin grounded, and the car stalls this way too.

When you say that fuel cut is disabled during decel when the neutral pin is grounded, do you mean that fuel is metered according to airflow? I've always been curious about what is different between the neutral, park, and "D" settings on the ECU. I know one difference is that in the "D" setting, the ECU programmed to anticipate some small load on the engine during idle because of the torque converter. This is what causes the high idle that occasionally happens with 5MT cars that do not have the neutral pin grounded.
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  #94  
Old 01-24-2006, 12:55 AM
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There is no d pin. There is an N pin and a P pin and there is a start pin.

The p pin tells the ecu the transmission is in park. There is no reason to use the p pin for a manual transmission.

The start pin tells the ecu you are starting the car. The start pin should receive it's signal when you are starting the car in order to engage the propper enrichments, coil dwell, ignition timing etc. The easiest way to wire this circuit is witch a switch on the clutch pedal which connects the wires from pin 11 and pin 12 from the inhibitor switch. This connects the ignition switch signal to both the ecu and the starter.

The N pin tells the ecu the transmission is in nuetral. The n pin needs to be recieve it's signal when the clutch is pushed in so that the ecu does not cut fuel during decel. I assumed it was a power signal but no it's a ground signal. You shouldn't just ground it all the time though. It should only be grounded when you push the clutch in. It would be nice if you could have it grounded while in nuetral too but that's not going to happen. You need it grounded when you push the clutch in though otherwise there will be times when the ecu will cut all fuel during decell not knowing the car is in the equivalent of nuetral..ie you have the clutch down. This will absolutely cause a stall.

You may still need a dashpot but you need to start with the ecu being wired propperly.
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  #95  
Old 01-24-2006, 01:07 AM
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of course on that note you should keep in mind that nuetral is not the same as the clutch being pushed down. If you put it in nuetral and don't hold the clutch down you will still experience the fuel cut during some decells and stall. I'm afraid you will have to keep the clutch down untill you have settled at a stop to be sure you don't stall due to a decell fuel cut.

You have a lm1 don't you? You should be able to log this and see. There are times during decell, read from speed sensor 2, where the ecu cuts all fuel and you will get a reading at the max of the lm1 of an afr of 22 to 1. If the ecu is recieveing the nuetral signal it will not perform this fuel cut.
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  #96  
Old 01-24-2006, 06:07 AM
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So, if the ECU thinks the phantom 4EAT is in D, it will cut all fuel when the throttle is completely closed. If it thinks it is in neutral, it won't. So, if the scenario for, stalling is push in the clutch, change gears, but do not immediately let out the clutch, because you're busy turning, then you would get a stall if the ECU thought you were in D, because it would shut off all fuel when the throttle closed. If it thinks you are in neutral when you push down the clutch, it will see the elevated rpm's that you had when you pushed down the clutch, and will try mightily to get those down to idle, because the throttle is closed. If it tries too hard, by cutting fuel the car will stall. So, it seems whether the ECU thinks the car is in D or N, we will have a stallling situation. Practically, since this period of delayed clutch re-engagement is typically in the range of a couple of seconds, mechanically delaying full throttle closure would solve it, at least for me, with my driving habits.
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  #97  
Old 01-24-2006, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longassname
There is no d pin. ....
I know that. If neither the park pin nor the neutral pin are grounded, then the ECU thinks the phantom 4eat is in drive. That's what I meant.

Under decel with the neutral pin grounded and with the tranny in gear, my LM-1 display shows 20.9% oxygen (which is a full lean condition). It doesn't start indicating the presence of any fuel until the rpms get pretty low. That's why I'm curious about your statement about there being no fuel cut during decel with the neutral pin grounded.

I don't see a point in wiring the neutral pin into a clutch pedal switch because as you said, it doesn't catch the situation where the tranny is in neutral. So, given the choice of either telling the ecu the phantom 4eat is in drive or neutral, I prefer to tell it is in neutral because this prevents the random high idle problem, and it allows the aux air controller to function properly (allowing proper idle speed when the engine is warming up).
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  #98  
Old 01-24-2006, 09:35 AM
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longassname longassname is offline
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The ECU often cuts fuel during decelleration. It does this with the automatic transmission and it isn't prepared for there to be a manual box there instead of an automatic. This is why you have to send the neutral signal to the ecu when you press in the clutch. If the ecu cuts fuel during decelleration while you are in gear the car will not stall because the drivetrain continues to spin the engine. If the ecu cuts fuel while you have the clutch pushed in or while you are coasting in neutral the engine will instantly stall.

Everyone can debate what they think is happening based on their experiences forever and a day but what I am telling you is a fact not a debatable point. If you want to fix your stall problem you need to start with wiring your ecu correctly. If you still have a stall problem after your ecu is wired correctly then take the next step and put in a dash pot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunslade
So, if the ECU thinks the phantom 4EAT is in D, it will cut all fuel when the throttle is completely closed. If it thinks it is in neutral, it won't. So, if the scenario for, stalling is push in the clutch, change gears, but do not immediately let out the clutch, because you're busy turning, then you would get a stall if the ECU thought you were in D, because it would shut off all fuel when the throttle closed. If it thinks you are in neutral when you push down the clutch, it will see the elevated rpm's that you had when you pushed down the clutch, and will try mightily to get those down to idle, because the throttle is closed. If it tries too hard, by cutting fuel the car will stall. So, it seems whether the ECU thinks the car is in D or N, we will have a stallling situation. Practically, since this period of delayed clutch re-engagement is typically in the range of a couple of seconds, mechanically delaying full throttle closure would solve it, at least for me, with my driving habits.
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  #99  
Old 01-24-2006, 09:41 AM
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You need to recheck your wiring then. The nuetral signal to the ecu does prevent the fuel cut. I logged it last night. I checked it 3 times. I decelled and caused the fuel cut sending the wideband to flatline at it's max of 22 to 1 and then put it in neutral which instantly returned the wideband to 14.7 to 1.

If you are using the old ground source for the inhibitor switch from pin 4 as your ground to send to the neutral pin that may be your problem. It looks like that wire recieved it's ground source from the tcu which you wouldn't have anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
I know that. If neither the park pin nor the neutral pin are grounded, then the ECU thinks the phantom 4eat is in drive. That's what I meant.

Under decel with the neutral pin grounded and with the tranny in gear, my LM-1 display shows 20.9% oxygen (which is a full lean condition). It doesn't start indicating the presence of any fuel until the rpms get pretty low. That's why I'm curious about your statement about there being no fuel cut during decel with the neutral pin grounded.

I don't see a point in wiring the neutral pin into a clutch pedal switch because as you said, it doesn't catch the situation where the tranny is in neutral. So, given the choice of either telling the ecu the phantom 4eat is in drive or neutral, I prefer to tell it is in neutral because this prevents the random high idle problem, and it allows the aux air controller to function properly (allowing proper idle speed when the engine is warming up).
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  #100  
Old 01-24-2006, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longassname
You need to recheck your wiring then. The nuetral signal to the ecu does prevent the fuel cut. I logged it last night. I checked it 3 times. I decelled and caused the fuel cut sending the wideband to flatline at it's max of 22 to 1 and then put it in neutral which instantly returned the wideband to 14.7 to 1.

If you are using the old ground source for the inhibitor switch from pin 4 as your ground to send to the neutral pin that may be your problem. It looks like that wire recieved it's ground source from the tcu which you wouldn't have anymore.

I wired a position switch in to my clutch that told the ECU it was in neutral when the clutch was depressed, this made you depress the clutch to start the car, and would kick the cruise control off when the clutch was pressed....and I never had the stall problem....

just thought I'd throw it out...
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  #101  
Old 01-24-2006, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longassname
The ECU often cuts fuel during decelleration. It does this with the automatic transmission and it isn't prepared for there to be a manual box there instead of an automatic. This is why you have to send the neutral signal to the ecu when you press in the clutch. If the ecu cuts fuel during decelleration while you are in gear the car will not stall because the drivetrain continues to spin the engine. If the ecu cuts fuel while you have the clutch pushed in or while you are coasting in neutral the engine will instantly stall.

Everyone can debate what they think is happening based on their experiences forever and a day but what I am telling you is a fact not a debatable point. If you want to fix your stall problem you need to start with wiring your ecu correctly. If you still have a stall problem after your ecu is wired correctly then take the next step and put in a dash pot.
Fact?
Sure the fuel is cut on overrun, but it starts again when the rpm get to around 1200 or so, does on every other car I have seen. How is this going to cause the engine to stall?

It's stalling because the IAC is shut.

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  #102  
Old 01-24-2006, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longassname
You need to recheck your wiring then. The nuetral signal to the ecu does prevent the fuel cut. I logged it last night. I checked it 3 times. I decelled and caused the fuel cut sending the wideband to flatline at it's max of 22 to 1 and then put it in neutral which instantly returned the wideband to 14.7 to 1.

If you are using the old ground source for the inhibitor switch from pin 4 as your ground to send to the neutral pin that may be your problem. It looks like that wire recieved it's ground source from the tcu which you wouldn't have anymore.
I'm grounding the neutral pin directly from the ecu. The "N" light on the dash lights up, and as I said before, the idle characteristics and the cold start characteristics are different than when the neutral pin is ungrounded.

Maybe we are intepreting the fuel cut differently. When I say that my LM-1 goes full lean, this is during decel with the tranny in gear. If I push in the clutch during decel and let the rpms drop, then the afr will go to stoich.

At any rate, I think it would be good if the IAC behavior could be modified. Was hoping you might do some research into the feasibility of this.
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Last edited by mbtoloczko; 01-24-2006 at 05:39 PM.
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  #103  
Old 01-24-2006, 05:34 PM
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My car would never stall as long as the A/C was running.
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  #104  
Old 01-24-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthworm
My car would never stall as long as the A/C was running.
It definitely happens less frequently for me when the A/C is running. I think the higher idle rpm gives more of a cushion for the rpm undershoot.
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  #105  
Old 01-24-2006, 06:16 PM
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I have realized something lately, My 6mt has begun to stall now that I replaced the SIAC hose that was dry rotted and cracked. This is further proof that the engine is not getting enough air. You can argue all day that the ECU is cutting fuel but in reality it is still a lack of air that is causing the actual stall. Does anyone have the part# for summit's dash pot? I am gonna order it and finally try to put this trivial matter to rest

Tom
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