Horrible noise / tranny no longer hold gear

[Mr. Pockets]

Really, I'm not kidding - my transmission no longer holds any gears.

I made it about a mile from my house this morning when it slipped right out of second. When I got home, backing in to the garage required 4,500RPM.

There is this horrible whirring and clattering noise when the engine revs up. This, combined with the slippage, leads me to suspect the ATF pump.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. If anybody has any insight, please let me know. I'll probably have the car towed to the dealer tomorrow.

Edit: I just called the dealer. They have no appointments available until the 17th, two days before I leave for the meet.

Unless this is something I can repair myself over the next week, I do not think that my SVX will be making it to the meet. Some of you know how hard that is to swallow.

Edit #2: If it is the ATF pump, I don't see how I can replace it myself within a week. It looks like it's in between the transmission and the diff. All the work I finished a month ago took me about three weekends, and I sorta knew my way around. I've never done anything with the transmission and I don't have a repair manual.

Edit #3: I'm desperate, so I've even called a local Aamco. Eek, I know, but they have a good rep and have given good service so far. They replaced the transmission in my friend's 3000GT and I let them replace the FL axle on my car.

But it doesn't look like they know Subarus very well. I had to clear up a few of his misconceptions

Anyway, they don't think that a transmission with 130k miles on it will be able to stand the pressure a brand new pump will create. Their opinion is that if I have a new pump put in, it's going to blow out all the seals on the tranny anyway, so I might as well pay them to put in a rebuilt.

Todd (wawazat) pointed me to a dealer in Ferndale. I called them, and they were great on the phone, but the service guy's opinion was that it simply was not going to be repaired before next weekend. He also said that there was the possibility that the transmission would need to be replaced.

[Beav]

It could be almost anything but pray for it to be the flexplate. Have you noticed any little ringing/tinging/clicking sounds lately? How's the ATF? Brown, smell burnt, etc.? Unlikely for the tranny to just drop trou' all of a sudden without some sort of preliminary notice.

*crosses fingers for ya*

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Beav
It could be almost anything but pray for it to be the flexplate. Have you noticed any little ringing/tinging/clicking sounds lately? How's the ATF? Brown, smell burnt, etc.? Unlikely for the tranny to just drop trou' all of a sudden without some sort of preliminary notice.

*crosses fingers for ya*

1. Why would I hope for the flex plate? I figure you mean because if it's the pump, it's spewed shrapnel into the tranny.

2. No, I did not notice any noises until last night, at which point I said, 'I'll have Ann Arbor Subaru take a look at it immediately.'

3. The ATF is full and fresh.

4. That's what I figured, and I hope that the pump or flex plate breaking didn't kill my working tranny.

Anyway, Beav, is there any reason I shouldn't undertake this stuff myself? Aside from my personal safety, of course (Area Idiot Crushed by Transmission). Here's my reasoning:

Every shop tells me that they can't get it done in time. If that's the case, then I have all the time in the world anyway.

[Beav]

Have you tried to restart the car since you parked it? Did it make any noise while the starter was engaged or only when the engine was running? Does the car have to be in motion to make the noise? I'm just trying to help narrow down the possibilities.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Beav
Have you tried to restart the car since you parked it? Did it make any noise while the starter was engaged or only when the engine was running? Does the car have to be in motion to make the noise? I'm just trying to help narrow down the possibilities.

The car starts just fine. As for whether or not it makes noise while the starter is engaged, I have no idea. It starts up so quickly, it would be difficult to say. I suppose I could unplug all the injectors, though.

The car does not have to be in motion to make the noise. While idling I can hear a relatively loud whirring noise (almost like a power steering pump), and if I rev it I hear a little clattering.

I should mention that I noticed noises last night. This morning when I started it I heard nothing out of the ordinary. I waited a bit, revved it a few times and it sounded fine. It wasn't until I was out on the road for half a mile that it started the rattling and whirring again. Another half-mile and it started slipping.

[Beav]

The reason I asked about noise while starting is if the flexplate was broken you should/could hear approx. the same noise, just not as loud. As to if the car only made the sound in motion might have indicated a differential or possibly an axle problem.

While it's not impossible, it is abnormal for a transmission to make a clatter. Usually a clutch or band burns out, a catastrophic loss of pressure occurs, etc., none of which make much noise, if any at all.

It's terribly difficult to provide a reliable diagnosis at this distance, but it seems to be still a flexplate or transmission. Either require about the same amount of labor, but I'd rather fork over $120 for a flexplate than $2500 for a tranny (hence my prior comment.)

If you determine that the trans has to come out I'd say you probably have the ability to do the labor yourself, as you've done so well this far. Just when you get to the point of actually removing it from the car make sure you have some help, it's a lot safer that way.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Beav
It's terribly difficult to provide a reliable diagnosis at this distance, but it seems to be still a flexplate or transmission.

I understand that, but I appreciate your help just the same.

As for 'flexplate or transmission,' since I haev only guessed, I just want to hear it from you. If the pump is the problem, are you saying that the transmission was likely damaged by it? That seems to be what you're suggesting, but I just want to be clear.

Anyway, I agree - I think I have the ability, if I take my time and pay attention to what I'm doing, to repair anything on this car. Be it a flexplate, ATF pump or a whole new rebuilt transmission, I'll probably put it in myself.

Hopefully I won't break something else in the process.

And if a new transmission is required, I'll do some things differently. Synthetic ATF from the very beginning. Temperature guage. Filter.

Yeah, I'll make the damned thing last longer than the 131k mine has gone so far.

Ann Arbor Subaru wants $2800 to install a rebuilt. I wonder what the parts cost is...I'll have to start saving my pennies...maybe by Reading I'll have it on the road again...

[kuoh]

Did you try disconnecting one of the tranny hoses and running the car for a short while to see if there is any pressure? If the pump is dead or dying, I would expect there to be no flow or a small dribble.

KuoH

[kuoh]

That's what happened to another Yahoo member last summer. She was driving along just fine and came to a stop at a red light, but when it turned green, no go. Turns out one of the tranny hoses split and let the fluid slowly leak out until there was no pressure left. We replaced the hose, filled up with fresh fluid, and as far as I know, she's still driving it today.

KuoH

Originally posted by Beav
While it's not impossible, it is abnormal for a transmission to make a clatter. Usually a clutch or band burns out, a catastrophic loss of pressure occurs, etc., none of which make much noise, if any at all.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by kuoh
Did you try disconnecting one of the tranny hoses and running the car for a short while to see if there is any pressure? If the pump is dead or dying, I would expect there to be no flow or a small dribble.

KuoH

That's not a bad suggestion, but I have a couple questions / concerns.

1. If the flexplate is bad, and therefore the problem is power transfer and not fluid pressure, would the pump turn at all?

2. By even starting the car, if the pump is bad, am I going to spread more debris through the tranny?

And this brings up another question:

If the pump is bad, and spit metal through the tranny, is this something I'll be able to tell by dropping the pan and having a look around? As I said, I heard this noise last night and this morning. Whatever failed clearly had enough time to do it, so if it was the pump, I would expect that it had more than enough time to defile the tranny with millions of metal chunks.

[Beav]

The pumps, in my experience, almost never go bad. Catastrophicaly, that is. If someone had the tranny out and didn't place the convertor back in correctly they could break the pump gear, but that's not the case here. While nothing is impossible, I try to stick to the more probable when beginning a diagnosis. The oddball stuff is rare, thank goodness.

If the plate went south you would have heard a lot of reasonably loud noise. If the pump went bad it usually crumbles fairly quickly and quits pumping as a result. You may have a broken drum or planets, yadda, yadda, yadda. Look at it this way - if it's not the flexplate it's more than likely going to be the tranny. And with 130,000+ miles on it, there's not much reason not to replace it rather than just repair what's happened today.

[kuoh]

Well noise usually means parts touching that are not supposed to. Usually, the louder the noise, the more expensive the parts.

As for debris spreading, if it didn't happen then, then your trip home and the struggle to get into the garage would most certainly have done it, if there were any debris. You seem to have little to lose by running the fluid in the pan through a strainer and checking the pan magnet for debris.

KuoH

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Beav
The pumps, in my experience, almost never go bad. Catastrophicaly, that is. If someone had the tranny out and didn't place the convertor back in correctly they could break the pump gear, but that's not the case here. While nothing is impossible, I try to stick to the more probable when beginning a diagnosis. The oddball stuff is rare, thank goodness.

If the plate went south you would have heard a lot of reasonably loud noise. If the pump went bad it usually crumbles fairly quickly and quits pumping as a result. You may have a broken drum or planets, yadda, yadda, yadda. Look at it this way - if it's not the flexplate it's more than likely going to be the tranny. And with 130,000+ miles on it, there's not much reason not to replace it rather than just repair what's happened today.

Thanks - I didn't get the impression from yor previous replies that the pump was an unlikely cause.

Based on the following reasoning, I suspect that it is, in fact, the flexplate:

1. There is a LOT of noise, as you say there should be if the plate is bad.

2. The suggestion that the pump is an unlikely cause.

3. If I'm correct, a broken flexplate would keep power from being transmitted to the torque converter and therefore the transmission. Am I correct?

So, are you also saying that, pump (unlikely as it apparently is) or flexplate, I should just replace my transmission - which has shown zero signs of failure so far?

Thanks for your help, BTW - it's been invaluable.

And since this narrows it down to something that probably didn't destroy the transmission, maybe I will try to tackle this on my own and before the meet...hrmm...

I would guess that I should try to get to the flexplate and determine its condition before I go ahead and order the necessary parts. But that's kind of a problem because I doubt I can get the tranny, diff and TC out in time to order the parts, get them and then put it all back together.

So I wonder if I should just call Scott and order me a flexplate. If so, what other things am I probably going to have to replace?

[immortal_suby]

Cube - I pulled my tranny on saturday and put a rebuild back in on sunday. I did it with the svx on jackstands in my 1 car garage. The only other tranny I've ever pulled was on an '84 blazer - I think my 2 cats could pull one of those if they'd stop fighting long enough.

You can do it - and you can do it in time for the meet if you have this weekend free. I'm still afraid to do the timing belts and you've done those. Just do one thing - rent a tranny jack. We don't want to see you at the meet with a busted arm.

[oab_au]

Does the noise stop when you pull it into gear, or does it continue. If it stops then it could be gearset failure from lack of lube.
If the noise continues, then it could be pump or converter problems.

The gearset is lubed from the cooler return line, If this is blocked or reduced by clutch or band debris, the gear set wears out.

The flex plate can produce noise, but would not cause the slipping. Lost of end float in the gearset adds travel to the clutches thus the slipping.
Harvey.