Thread for Shadow about a higher power

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by BurgundyBeast
On the issue of removing religion, if you're talking about banning prayer in the classroom. Honestly I don't see the need for it. I was Christian, and I don't remember ever being told that I needed to say a prayer at any particular time during the day. Actually, growing up I was always told to say my prayers before I went to sleep at night. To me, religion is a family thing, practice it at home, together.

Ok, but then why are we being forced to remove thousand year old symbols of religion? These are inanimate objects that are not forcing anything on anybody. In many places, manger scenes and other displays involving biblical characters are banned. Why? How could you possibly see a light up, plastic, 3 foot tall Jesus as a problem?

I certainly would never say that everyone in this country should be christian...or any one religion for that matter. My point is that christianity seems to be the majority religion in this country, it has been this way for hundreds of years...no one ever had problems with that...why all of a sudden is it a problem? Especially seeing as christianity is not the kind of religion that requires it's followers to drive themselves and trucks full of explosives into buildings filled with non-believers. Right?

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Anyway, don't bother replying, it's quite apparent that you're completely wrong and set upon being so.

Yes sir! I was not aware that you were the authority on what is right. Now that I know, I shall never question you again.

Originally posted by drivemusicnow
First, You are absolutely right.. Christians have just as much a right to practice their religion as does anyone.. however why should others not have rights, because of something they don't believe in? HOW many times have we been through civil rights movements??? how many more do we have to go through?!?

First, how can you deny the religious rights of someone who doesn't believe in anything?

Second, I find it unnerving that it's not ok for me to "deny the rights of an atheist" when they are the ones suing to get all the symbols of my religion removed from their eyesight. Who's denying who's rights here?

Originally posted by Shadow248

Second, I find it unnerving that it's not ok for me to "deny the rights of an atheist" when they are the ones suing to get all the symbols of my religion removed from their eyesight. Who's denying who's rights here?

As far as I know, the only time that any 'manger' scene with a baby J and whatnot causes a problem is when it's at a GOVERNMENT BUILDING. This country was created to get AWAY from religious persecution, and the freedom we have here is BECAUSE of the seperation of church and state. I don't like camaros, or baby J light up plastic figures very much. If you like em, great! But state/federal buildings CANNOT put this stuff out! Atheists fight to remove religous things from Gov buildings, and 'bless' them for it!

:P

- Jim

now that the election is over, next time remember b. f. skinner. he was that wacko guy who raised his daughter in a box early on, developed a guided bomb during ww2 using a pigeon inside pecking away to guide the thing and though of a utopian community which he dubed "walden two"

in that ideal commumity nobody voted in u.s. elections. he caculated that the chances of your vote effecting the outcome were less that the chances of your being injured or killed in an auto accident on the way to the polls.

and yeah, i voted anyway (but the polling place was only a mile doen the road!).

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
As far as I know, the only time that any 'manger' scene with a baby J and whatnot causes a problem is when it's at a GOVERNMENT BUILDING.

First...that's not the only case it's happened in. There have been no less than 30 separate lawsuits involving "public displays of religion" in front of churches!! Imagine that...a manger scene in front of a church!! How can that possibly be a problem?!

Second...about the government building thing...I still don't see how it's a problem. Yes, if there were twenty members of the Christian Right screaming at you as you walked into the building, I could see that being a nuisance...hell I would be on your side in that case, but a plaque displaying the ten commandments? Or a statue of a religious figure? Give me a break! If you have a problem with it, don't look at it!

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
This country was created to get AWAY from religious persecution, and the freedom we have here is BECAUSE of the seperation of church and state.

Ahh...another common misconception about a constitutional law. Read up on "The Separation of Church and State"...you'll find something very interesting. The law does not stipulate the involvement of church and religion in state affairs. It does exactly the opposite...the law was created to keep the goverment from dictating what churches can and cannot do.

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
I don't like camaros, or baby J light up plastic figures very much. If you like em, great!

HAHA...ok, relax.

Originally posted by Shadow248

etc.

Given the stupidity of things in this world, I'm sure there are some 'fluke' cases about Churches getting into trouble for having a manger scene, but most of the time, that doesn't happen. I agree that that's pretty stupid, but then again you have judges down in Texas wanting to put up the commandments in their courtroom, stuff like that.

And why does it bother me? Because christianity is a religion with a lot of blood, hypocrisy, injustice, genocide, a tyrannical god (but oh wait he turns nice in Part 2: God returns!), arrogance, complete denial of many scientific discoveries, and disgusting things that wouldn't even be allowed to be discussed in church. So basically, it offends me. Add in the fact that so many things we celebrate as 'christian' things are basically just stolen from other religions, and no siree bob, I dislike Christianity.

Jesus is cool. Very important dude noted in quite a few different religion's books..... but only one claims he was the son of god (or was he god? Oh we can't make up our minds about that either! :P) Anyway, he wouldn't be a christian in today's world either.

- Jim

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Given the stupidity of things in this world, I'm sure there are some 'fluke' cases about Churches getting into trouble for having a manger scene, but most of the time, that doesn't happen.

You'd be surprised how many of these 'fluke' cases have occurred.

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
I agree that that's pretty stupid, but then again you have judges down in Texas wanting to put up the commandments in their courtroom, stuff like that.

I just can't possibly imagine how a list of sentences could possibly be such a problem for you that you would be unhappy just being in the same room as said text. If this really is a problem for you, then I suggest you excercise your right to NOT LOOK AT IT!

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
And why does it bother me? Because christianity is a religion with a lot of blood, hypocrisy, injustice, genocide, a tyrannical god (but oh wait he turns nice in Part 2: God returns!), arrogance, complete denial of many scientific discoveries, and disgusting things that wouldn't even be allowed to be discussed in church.

Wow, have you actually read the bible? Or just what western textbooks say about it? This is the most liberal view of christianity i've ever heard. Everyone interprets things differently, sure, but do you look at everything with such a negative angle? I tend to be a bit more optimistic, it helps me stay happy...but whatever.

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
So basically, it offends me. Add in the fact that so many things we celebrate as 'christian' things are basically just stolen from other religions, and no siree bob, I dislike Christianity.

Christianity is itself a conglomeration of many classic religions...so it's no surprise that it's customs are of mixed origin.

I always try to put myself in other's shoes and understand why they feel the way they do. So I certainly respect your beliefs even though I think they are crazy. The thing I don't understand is how a person like you can not want to kill yourself. To think that all you have is your time here on earth, seems to me like it would feel much like being a pig on a farm - raised only to be killed. There is no hope, nothing to strive for, because no matter how much you accomplish here on earth, once you die, it's all gone. Ever try to imagine what it's like being dead? I think of what heaven must be like. What do you think of? Darkness? What it will be like to not exist?

And furthermore, how do you explain what science has failed to explain? Things like the glint in the eyes on a Monarch butterfly's wings? Things that just have no scientific purpose...or useable function (like the human reaction we call crying)? To me there is just way too much proof in this world for me to believe it's all just a great big coincidence.

Dude, like I said, I'm not an atheist. I'm just not Christian. This is what bothers me about a lot of christians like yourself who think it's fine when state and federal buildings have religious conotations: Your complete arrogance in that assuming just because I'm not christian that I automatically believe there is no afterlife and when you're dead you're dead.

Just to stir the pot a little, according to your religion, which makes 'sense' to you, Adolf Hitler could have said he was 'sorry' to Jesus and God a few minutes before he died, and guess what? He'd be in heaven.

Also, the glint on a monarch's wing's eyes? Monarch butterflies don't have the big fake eyes on their wings, but considering the moths/butterflies that DO have the big fake eyes have evolved to try to look like a much larger animal, it makes sense that the fake eyes would 'glint' a little to make them more realistic.

Lastly, let's finish up with a nice verse from the 'good book':

"Ezekiel, Chapter 23

23:1
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

23:2
Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

23:3
And they committed *****doms in Egypt; they committed *****doms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

23:4
And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

23:5
And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

23:6
Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

23:7
Thus she committed her *****doms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

23:8
Neither left she her *****doms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their *****dom upon her.

23:9
Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

23:10
These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

23:11
And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her *****doms more than her sister in her *****doms.

23:12
She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

23:13
Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

23:14
And that she increased her *****doms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

23:15
Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

23:16
And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.

23:17
And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their *****dom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

23:18
So she discovered her *****doms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

23:19
Yet she multiplied her *****doms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

23:20
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Yeahhhhh....

- Jim

[Ron Mummert]

Ever try to imagine what it's like being dead? I think of what heaven must be like. What do you think of? Darkness? What it will be like to not exist?



Not to exist may well be exactly like it was before you were born.
A billion years or so of darkness followed by the big frat party called life. Then back to the eternal cocoon for recycling somewhere/sometime else in the cosmos....unless you're Shirley McLain, of course.

Ron (nonetheless, I do love harp music).

[Landshark]

if most religions say the afterlife is so wonderful, where is the motivation to stay alive?

[Ron Mummert]

Originally posted by Landshark
if most religions say the afterlife is so wonderful, where is the motivation to stay alive?

What, Alan? You mean cars in heaven got funny windows?

Ron (case rested).

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Ron Mummert



What, Alan? You mean cars in heaven got funny windows?

Ron (case rested).

......and unbreakable transmissions.

Originally posted by Landshark
if most religions say the afterlife is so wonderful, where is the motivation to stay alive?

Heh. True followers stay alive a long time just so they can prove that they resisted all the temptations. duh. :P

Anyway, this topic has digressed. If you want to continue a philosophical discussion, let's start a new thread eh?

- Jim

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
[/b]Also, the glint on a monarch's wing's eyes? Monarch butterflies don't have the big fake eyes on their wings, but considering the moths/butterflies that DO have the big fake eyes have evolved to try to look like a much larger animal, it makes sense that the fake eyes would 'glint' a little to make them more realistic.[/b]

Some butterfly. Anyway, you're not thinking deep enough. A "glint" is a human interpretation of light. There is no way that an insect could develop (how would it know what a glint even is?), unless made that way by a creator with reasoning abilities.

Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Anyway, this topic has digressed. If you want to continue a philosophical discussion, let's start a new thread eh?

- Jim

K.

[lee]

Originally posted by Shadow248
First...that's not the only case it's happened in. There have been no less than 30 separate lawsuits involving "public displays of religion" in front of churches!! Imagine that...a manger scene in front of a church!! How can that possibly be a problem?!

Second...about the government building thing...I still don't see how it's a problem. Yes, if there were twenty members of the Christian Right screaming at you as you walked into the building, I could see that being a nuisance...hell I would be on your side in that case, but a plaque displaying the ten commandments? Or a statue of a religious figure? Give me a break! If you have a problem with it, don't look at it!...snip...

Shadow, can you provide any sort of reference for the assertion of lawsuits for a church displaying a manger scene? I admit this is a bizarre scenario, but also have to say I have never heard of such a thing.

As to the second point, did you know that for a period in the US an atheist could not file a lawsuit or testify in court, even for themselves (a fairly serious denial of justice) because a swearing on the Bible would have no coercion for them. Anyway, lets say I find the 10 Commandments abhorrent (actually I could care less) and said so in earshot of the judge who had the plaque posted - do you honestly think I'd get a fair shake at trial?

I'd like to conclude that perhaps you should research the roles that Thomas Paine and Mr Jefferson had in the Nation's founding principles. For example in 1787 11 of the 13 states had religious tests in order to hold office, but carefully read Article VI of the Constitution (especially clauses 2 & 3).

Originally posted by Shadow248


K.

A glint isn't a human interpretation of light. it's caused by a surface that's more reflective than another surface.

If you don't think that something as simple as a 'glint' on a butterfly wing could come from evolution (evolving to imitate), and you're 100% dead set on the fact that 'because it makes so much sense someone HAD to create it, I ask you this:

Who created your creator?

- Jim