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  #16  
Old 12-14-2003, 05:00 PM
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Great news, im glad he will try for what he has done
And on a side note, GO BEARS!!!!!! GRossemen looks prommisiing and our season tickets were alot of fun!
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2003, 07:13 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraph
[B]

IMO, N. Korea would be a lot more harmful than Iraq. We should have known that Saddam was bluffing. My decision is split in these two cases. North Korea is a definate thread.



Keep yer eye on Pakistan too.


Ron (Isn't Grenada due for another invasion?)
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  #18  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


He killed thousands of his own people and used chemical weapons on his neighbors - what other proof do you need that he was 'nuts?'

I don't want to step on toes, but I think that people need to understand the history of the United States and Iraq. This is an excerpt from a persuasive essay I wrote for my website back in February. I know it's long, but I think it's important to have the big picture and not focus on the latest news without analyzing historical data (my history prof would be so happy).

George H.W. Bush served as Vice President under Ronald Reagan from 1980 to 1988. In 1982, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from a list of known countries that supported terrorism. This was done in order to help Iraq defeat Iran during that war. In a 1995 sworn affidavit of Howard Teicher, information was released about the United States providing over $1 billion, military intellegence, and insuring successful third-world military sales to Iraq.

In December 1983, an envoy of the Reagan Administration, Donald Rumsfeld, was sent to Baghdad to meet with Hussein and Tariq Aziz. Rumsfeld carried a letter from the United States and Israel. The United States pledged to help Iraq as the United States stood to lose global and economic power if the war was lost. Israel offered assistance to help Iraq as well, but this was declined.

In March 1984, Rumsfeld was sent back to Baghdad for another meeting with Aziz. The same day these two met, the United Nations reported the Iraq was using chemical weapons against Iran. Reagan, Bush Sr. and others condemned these acts, but in November, Aziz was invited to the White House. Reagan met with Aziz to discuss reopening relations between the two nations (ties had been cut in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War). Apparently, the Iraqi use of chemical weapons was not enought to deter the administration.

A US Senate report was published in 1994 detailing the help provided to Iraq. Between 1985 and 1989, American companies, licensed by the Department of Commerce, had exported anthrax, botulinum toxin, histoplasma capsulatam (attacks lungs, spinal cord, brain, and heart), brucella melitensis (damages organs), clostridium perfringens (causes systemic illness), and clostridium tetani (just plain toxic). These weapons were exported in their strong forms and capable of reproduction. A United Nations report on Iraqi biological weapons later detailed these exact substances found in Iraq. The United Nations found these idenitical weapons used against Iran.

President Reagan and Vice President Bush communicated with Hussein through Egyptian officials. It was later shown that Reagan and Bush were giving advice to the Iraqi dictator.
Most of the weapons that Hussein had purchased were from other nations, but 100 helicopters were purchased from the United States. As a matter of fact, some of these helicopters were used to gas Kurds in northern Iraq. Note that the current Bush administration uses this point to show that Saddam is a homicidal dictator--but remember, he's using US helicopters. Iraq also purchased approximately $1 billion worth of components to build a nuclear bomb and bomb delivery technology (i.e. Scud and Al Samoud missiles) from the United States.

When George H.W. Bush took office in 1989, the policy toward Iraq didn't change. The Iran-Iraq war had ended, but the United States was still providing assistance to Iraq. For FY1990, the United States provided $1 billion for agricultural aid. Between 1985 and 1989, over $5 billion was provided to Iraq.
Of course, US policy toward Iraq changed after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990 and the entire international community condemned the invasion. At that point, it would be hard for the US to support it's second greatest middle eastern ally (next to Israel). Remember, the same weapons that were used to attack Iran were the same ones used to invade Kuwait. The same ones that the US helped provide.

To further my point, I would like to provide a transcript of a conversation between Senator Robert Byrd and Donald Rumsfeld, dated September 19, 2002:

SEN. BYRD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding these hearings. Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Certainly not to my knowledge. I have no knowledge of United States companies or government being involved in assisting Iraq develop, chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

SEN. BYRD: Mr. Secretary, let me read to you from the September 23, 2002 Newsweek story. I read this -- I read excerpts, because our time is limited: ""Some Reagan officials even saw Saddam as another Anwar Sadat, capable of making Iraq into a modern secular state, just as Sadat had tried to lift up Egypt before his assassination in 1981. But Saddam had to be rescued first. The war against Iran was going badly by 1982. Iran's 'human wave attacks' threatened to overrun Saddam's armies. Washington decided to give Iraq a helping hand. After Rumsfeld's visit to Baghdad in 1983, U.S. intelligence began supplying the Iraqi dictator with satellite photos showing Iranian deployments. Official documents suggest that America may also have secretly arranged for tanks and other military hardware to be shipped to Iraq in a swap deal -- American tanks to Egypt, Egyptian tanks to Iraq. Over the protest of some Pentagon skeptics, the Reagan administration began allowing the Iraqis to buy a wide variety of " -- quote -- "dual use" -- close quote -- "equipment and materials from American suppliers. According to confidential Commerce Department export-control documents obtained by NEWSWEEK, the shopping list included a computerized database for Saddam's Interior Ministry, presumably to help keep track of political opponents; helicopters to transport Iraqi officials; television cameras for video surveillance applications; chemical-analysis equipment for the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission, IAEC, and, most unsettling, numerous shipments of bacteria/fungi/protozoa to the IAEC. According to former officials, the bacteria cultures could be used to make biological weapons, including anthrax. The State Department also approved the shipment of 1.5 million atropine injectors, for use against the effects of chemical weapons, but the Pentagon blocked the sale. Helicopters, some American officials later surmised, were used to spray poison gas on the Kurds. The United States almost certainly knew from its own satellite imagery that Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iranian troops. When Saddam bombed Kurdish rebels and civilians with a lethal cocktail of mustard gas, sarin, tabun and VX in 1988, the Reagan administration first blamed Iran, before acknowledging, under pressure from congressional Democrats, that the culprits were Saddam's own forces. There was only token official protest at the time. Saddam's men were unfazed. An Iraqi audiotape, later captured by the Kurds, records Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as Ali Chemical, talking to his fellow officers about gassing the Kurds. 'Who is going to say anything?,' closed quotes, he asks. Quote, 'The international community? F-blank them,'" exclamation point, closed quote.
Now, can this possibly be true? We already knew that Saddam was a dangerous man at the time. I realize that you were not in public office at the time, but you were dispatched to Iraq by President Reagan to talk about the need to improve relations between Iraq and the U.S. Let me ask you again: To your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapon during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? The Washington Post reported this morning that the United States is stepping away from efforts to strengthen the Biological Weapons Convention. I'll have a question on that later. Let me ask you again: Did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapon during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown?

SEC. RUMSFELD: I have not read the article. I, as you suggest, I was for a period in late '83 and early '84, asked by President Reagan to serve as Middle East envoy after the Marines -- 241 Marines were killed in Beirut. And as part of my responsibilities, I did visit Baghdad. I did meet with Mr. Tariq Aziz, and I did meet with Saddam Hussein, and spent some time visiting with them about the war they were engaged in with Iran.
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  #19  
Old 12-15-2003, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seraph
What do we do now that we got him?
Let him be tried in an Iraqi court for his use of chemical weapons on his own citizens and the invasion of Kuwait.


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Also, how is he a bad guy? He is the ruler of his nation and who are we to decide on how to rule a nation?
See above comment


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Where are the chemical weapons?
Buried. I saw an interview on PBS with a former Iraqi military commander who talked about what the soldiers did with the weapons before they surrendered to Coalition forces.


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My reasoning behind is look at Russia. When the communist rule the nation, Russia was poor but was generally ruled by someone. Now, it's ruled by a bunch of Russian Mafia and thugs.
That is exactly why we can't just walk away. There needs to be an occupational government that stays in place until the Iraqis can form a balanced form of government with all the different groups, or split up into smaller countries.

Doug
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2003, 09:06 AM
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im in 100% agreement with doug on this.
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  #21  
Old 12-15-2003, 10:43 AM
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Sidewinder, thanks for posting part of your essay. I think what's important to note is that the world was a very different place in the '80s, and we had very different strategic goals then. Enemy number one was the USSR and we had tons of indirect conflicts with them. These conflicts affected the local people involved, but we had a Big Bad Evil to keep at bay.

Sometimes foreign policy seems contradictory, especially with that 20/20 hindsight. Often our goals today are different than they were twenty years ago, and people often forget to consider that when looking back and saying, 'well, that was stupid.'
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2003, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mohrds

Buried. I saw an interview on PBS with a former Iraqi military commander who talked about what the soldiers did with the weapons before they surrendered to Coalition forces.

Doug
I've also seen plenty of quotes from former Iraqi military personnel which seem to indicate that by the time we invaded there were no chemical weapons. Saddam made every effort to look like he still had them - even telling his tropps that he had them. It looks like every defensive position around Baghdad said the same thing - 'we didn't have chemical weapons, but we were told by our superiors that the guys next to us did.'

I think it's very possible that there were some lingering WMDs before we invaded. We certainly had some good intelligence suggesting that there were. But, facing an imminent (and crushing) American invasion, they could damage our international relations by quickly getting rid of them and leaving us empty-handed after the dust settled.

As Lwin said, it was a bluff. But I don't agree with Lwin that, since we called it, we lost. We will only have lost if we fail to help the Iraqis rebuild their country with a representative government incapable of the sort of atrocities Saddam inflicted on his neighbors and his own people. If we had 'left in 7 days,' like he suggested - that would be a loss.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2003, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mohrds

Let him be tried in an Iraqi court for his use of chemical weapons on his own citizens and the invasion of Kuwait.
In that case can we bring the President for invasion of Iraq? Invasion is an invasion right? What he does to his citizens are his business I think. Why? What is US doing in many countries in Africa. There are more deaths due to leaders there. Also, what is US doing in some countries in Asia? Rape, murder are in thousands too. The motives behind invasion is wrong regardless of what the White house press release says. The US lead invasion IMO is headed because of what US can gain rather than helping out people and policing around. There are way too many nations that needs policing if that is the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by mohrds

Buried. I saw an interview on PBS with a former Iraqi military commander who talked about what the soldiers did with the weapons before they surrendered to Coalition forces.
Where are they? Anything buried can be dug up. We've even dug up bodies before and ID them. Weapons will be in metal containers. Easier to find. If we found them, we'd be telling everyone at the top of our lungs "I TOLD YOU SO"

Quote:
Originally posted by mohrds

That is exactly why we can't just walk away. There needs to be an occupational government that stays in place until the Iraqis can form a balanced form of government with all the different groups, or split up into smaller countries.
I agree with the fact that we can't walk away now. We are in way too deep to just walk away. Often times, occupational government create more trouble for the natives. Look at most regions on earth which has political unrest. Palestine and Israel, Pakistan and India to name a few... Someone in their brightest knowledge decided that that's the best thing to do. We have people that are dying thanks to that person. A country/region has it's own traditions and customs that are guiding it. you can not Americanise it in a blink of an eye and expect it to change.


Just my thoughts.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:00 PM
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In that case can we bring the President for invasion of Iraq? Invasion is an invasion right?
I think you've got a bad sense of what an "invasion" is. An invasion is when you DON'T know it's coming. Saddam KNEW it was coming. He had PLENTY of warning and plenty of opportunity to simply stand down. He was thumbing his nose at UN resolutions and therefore, deserved to be deposed, by whatever means.


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What he does to his citizens are his business I think.
I can't believe you even said this.

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Where are they? Anything buried can be dug up.
They're probably in Syria, or another surrounding country. The UN, while it was waffling, gave Saddam ample time to ship the WMD's around the world if he wanted to, and would've taken more time if allowed to do so, even though Iraq was CLEARLY in violation of UN resolutions. People say that the US taking an initiaitive, on its own, took the teeth out of the UN. I contend that an organization that will not uphold its own edicts, has no teeth.


Quote:
I agree with the fact that we can't walk away now. We are in way too deep to just walk away. Often times, occupational government create more trouble for the natives. Look at most regions on earth which has political unrest. Palestine and Israel, Pakistan and India to name a few... Someone in their brightest knowledge decided that that's the best thing to do. We have people that are dying thanks to that person. A country/region has it's own traditions and customs that are guiding it. you can not Americanise it in a blink of an eye and expect it to change.

Some seem to forget the fact that the US began as a "colony," so, we're not exactly numb to what colonization means. Sheesh, it took us forever to get rid of those pesky British . Now, they're our staunchest ally. I'm not all about "occupation" but, I am in favor of liberation. If there's a situation in which the leader of a country is sumarrily deleting humans, merely because they are not of the same "sect" or race, and the UN turns a blind eye, I'm all for going in and removing said "leader." No, what the "leader" would do to his own citizens IS our business. Hitler was our business . . . Moussolini was our business . . . Idi Amin was our business (of course, he went on his own) . . . because, if left unchecked, these people will spread their poison as far as they can, or, they will merely exploit their own people to show their power.


Yes, the US made "happy" with Iraq, when it suited them. Yes, the US trained Bin Laden. Yes, many of the guerillas in the South American countries were US trained. We make strategic moves to accomplish what is needed at the time. It's pure and simply "what's done" and the US is not exclusive in its use of such tactics.

As far as the US goes, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we try to aid a country, people get pissed and ask "why did you do that?" If we sit back and let some despot grind his people into a bloody pulp, we're asked, "why didn't you do something?" It's a dicotomy we'll just have to live with.

What really gualds my balls is for our guys to die, doing what they believe is right, and then have people "poo poo" their sacrifice as being "stupid." Personally, I wish we could bring ALL of our boys home and simply keep them around our borders, and leave the rest of the world to their own devices. But, that's not possible, so, until the rest of the world can take full and complete care of it's own damned problems, I say, quit giving the US crap every time one of our boys has to die to clean up someone elses mess.

Just my thoughts.
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:21 PM
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Thumbs up

I am going to take a easy way out on this one. I have my point of view on the situation and may of you all do as well. We can keep telling each other on and on but the it will not change the situation at all.

I am glad that one Nutcase is at least under control. How they got to the nutcase is what I have trouble with but that's ok.

Let's end this here before a lot more people get "personally" involved.

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  #26  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:44 PM
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Yea, we should probably close this thread.
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seraph
I am going to take a easy way out on this one. I have my point of view on the situation and may of you all do as well. We can keep telling each other on and on but the it will not change the situation at all.

I am glad that one Nutcase is at least under control. How they got to the nutcase is what I have trouble with but that's ok.

Let's end this here before a lot more people get "personally" involved.


Sorry, Lwin, I'm a little aggravated with people who sit in the comfort of their easy chairs, enjoying the freedoms offered by the sacrifices of our warriors and treating it like some "political football" as if they had a better idea. I'm mainly thinking of our soon-to-be presidential canditates, who, instead of trying to use the capture of Saddam as an opportunity to attack each other, or, to try and make themselves look good by "doing the polically correct thing" by congratulating the administration, should have stepped out of the spotlight, and spent a quiet day at home (or, in the case of Clark, in the Haque) saying nothing. The play that the Lieberman comment is getting is just pathetic. Dean stumbling to make Saddam's capture a "good thing" without giving the administration credit, is comical. Kerry, giving the administration credit, through what can only be clinched teeth (figuratively), is "perfect politico." Sheesh!

Iraq is free, Saddam is captured -- let's help the folks get set up, make sure they're secure, then, move on and let them enjoy their new-found liberty. End of story. What's done, to this point, is done. Leave the rest for the future.

I'm done.
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:58 PM
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In my opinion, this isn't the type of thread we should close. It's a civilized discussion so far, and I don't have a problem with that. It's off-topic, but that's what this forum is for.

We have pretty free and open newsgroups here at work, but at least two things are banned: discussions surrounding religion or politics. Do we need to do that here? I don't think so, but maybe some people do...
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
In my opinion, this isn't the type of thread we should close. It's a civilized discussion so far, and I don't have a problem with that. It's off-topic, but that's what this forum is for.

We have pretty free and open newsgroups here at work, but at least two things are banned: discussions surrounding religion or politics. Do we need to do that here? I don't think so, but maybe some people do...

I agree. The only time a thread should be pulled is when it really gets personal -- and, I think we all know the difference.

Let me say this: I respect Lwin's position and opinion, even though I may disagree with it. That's what FOS is all about. I don't have to attack him, personally, in order to express my opinion, nor, him, me. However, I see nothing wrong with a "point/counterpoint" discussion.

I hope we haven't stooped to the point of adding an off-topic forum, only to try and rule the legitimacy of "off-topicness" contained therein.
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seraph
Also, what is US doing in some countries in Asia? Rape, murder are in thousands too. The motives behind invasion is wrong regardless of what the White house press release says. The US lead invasion IMO is headed because of what US can gain rather than helping out people and policing around. There are way too many nations that needs policing if that is the case.
I do not beleive we have taken any barrels of oil from Iraq. In fact we are BUYING oil from neighboring countries and shipping it into Iraq for our military needs.

As for the US in Asia, Other than Korea, no one has stood up and said "We have WMDs and we plan to use them on Americans" so they only get small forces in a training or assistance mode, not a full on military presence.

We also tried to help in Somalia where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were being killed. Unfortunately, our liberal president at that time tied the hands of the military and prevented anything other than pointless loss of life on both sides.

Doug
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