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#16
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Great news, im glad he will try for what he has done
And on a side note, GO BEARS!!!!!! GRossemen looks prommisiing and our season tickets were alot of fun! phil
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~Phil Teal 1992 Subaru SVX Turbo - Sold in May 2011 to peace-frog. |
#17
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraph
[B] IMO, N. Korea would be a lot more harmful than Iraq. We should have known that Saddam was bluffing. My decision is split in these two cases. North Korea is a definate thread. Keep yer eye on Pakistan too. Ron (Isn't Grenada due for another invasion?)
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Good s**t happened. 69 was worth the wait. '92 stock semi-pristine ebony - 160K '96 Grand Caravan - 240K '01 Miata SE - 79K '07 Chrysler Pacifica - 60k - future money pit. |
#18
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George H.W. Bush served as Vice President under Ronald Reagan from 1980 to 1988. In 1982, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from a list of known countries that supported terrorism. This was done in order to help Iraq defeat Iran during that war. In a 1995 sworn affidavit of Howard Teicher, information was released about the United States providing over $1 billion, military intellegence, and insuring successful third-world military sales to Iraq. In December 1983, an envoy of the Reagan Administration, Donald Rumsfeld, was sent to Baghdad to meet with Hussein and Tariq Aziz. Rumsfeld carried a letter from the United States and Israel. The United States pledged to help Iraq as the United States stood to lose global and economic power if the war was lost. Israel offered assistance to help Iraq as well, but this was declined. In March 1984, Rumsfeld was sent back to Baghdad for another meeting with Aziz. The same day these two met, the United Nations reported the Iraq was using chemical weapons against Iran. Reagan, Bush Sr. and others condemned these acts, but in November, Aziz was invited to the White House. Reagan met with Aziz to discuss reopening relations between the two nations (ties had been cut in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War). Apparently, the Iraqi use of chemical weapons was not enought to deter the administration. A US Senate report was published in 1994 detailing the help provided to Iraq. Between 1985 and 1989, American companies, licensed by the Department of Commerce, had exported anthrax, botulinum toxin, histoplasma capsulatam (attacks lungs, spinal cord, brain, and heart), brucella melitensis (damages organs), clostridium perfringens (causes systemic illness), and clostridium tetani (just plain toxic). These weapons were exported in their strong forms and capable of reproduction. A United Nations report on Iraqi biological weapons later detailed these exact substances found in Iraq. The United Nations found these idenitical weapons used against Iran. President Reagan and Vice President Bush communicated with Hussein through Egyptian officials. It was later shown that Reagan and Bush were giving advice to the Iraqi dictator. Most of the weapons that Hussein had purchased were from other nations, but 100 helicopters were purchased from the United States. As a matter of fact, some of these helicopters were used to gas Kurds in northern Iraq. Note that the current Bush administration uses this point to show that Saddam is a homicidal dictator--but remember, he's using US helicopters. Iraq also purchased approximately $1 billion worth of components to build a nuclear bomb and bomb delivery technology (i.e. Scud and Al Samoud missiles) from the United States. When George H.W. Bush took office in 1989, the policy toward Iraq didn't change. The Iran-Iraq war had ended, but the United States was still providing assistance to Iraq. For FY1990, the United States provided $1 billion for agricultural aid. Between 1985 and 1989, over $5 billion was provided to Iraq. Of course, US policy toward Iraq changed after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990 and the entire international community condemned the invasion. At that point, it would be hard for the US to support it's second greatest middle eastern ally (next to Israel). Remember, the same weapons that were used to attack Iran were the same ones used to invade Kuwait. The same ones that the US helped provide. To further my point, I would like to provide a transcript of a conversation between Senator Robert Byrd and Donald Rumsfeld, dated September 19, 2002: SEN. BYRD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding these hearings. Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? SEC. RUMSFELD: Certainly not to my knowledge. I have no knowledge of United States companies or government being involved in assisting Iraq develop, chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. SEN. BYRD: Mr. Secretary, let me read to you from the September 23, 2002 Newsweek story. I read this -- I read excerpts, because our time is limited: ""Some Reagan officials even saw Saddam as another Anwar Sadat, capable of making Iraq into a modern secular state, just as Sadat had tried to lift up Egypt before his assassination in 1981. But Saddam had to be rescued first. The war against Iran was going badly by 1982. Iran's 'human wave attacks' threatened to overrun Saddam's armies. Washington decided to give Iraq a helping hand. After Rumsfeld's visit to Baghdad in 1983, U.S. intelligence began supplying the Iraqi dictator with satellite photos showing Iranian deployments. Official documents suggest that America may also have secretly arranged for tanks and other military hardware to be shipped to Iraq in a swap deal -- American tanks to Egypt, Egyptian tanks to Iraq. Over the protest of some Pentagon skeptics, the Reagan administration began allowing the Iraqis to buy a wide variety of " -- quote -- "dual use" -- close quote -- "equipment and materials from American suppliers. According to confidential Commerce Department export-control documents obtained by NEWSWEEK, the shopping list included a computerized database for Saddam's Interior Ministry, presumably to help keep track of political opponents; helicopters to transport Iraqi officials; television cameras for video surveillance applications; chemical-analysis equipment for the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission, IAEC, and, most unsettling, numerous shipments of bacteria/fungi/protozoa to the IAEC. According to former officials, the bacteria cultures could be used to make biological weapons, including anthrax. The State Department also approved the shipment of 1.5 million atropine injectors, for use against the effects of chemical weapons, but the Pentagon blocked the sale. Helicopters, some American officials later surmised, were used to spray poison gas on the Kurds. The United States almost certainly knew from its own satellite imagery that Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iranian troops. When Saddam bombed Kurdish rebels and civilians with a lethal cocktail of mustard gas, sarin, tabun and VX in 1988, the Reagan administration first blamed Iran, before acknowledging, under pressure from congressional Democrats, that the culprits were Saddam's own forces. There was only token official protest at the time. Saddam's men were unfazed. An Iraqi audiotape, later captured by the Kurds, records Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as Ali Chemical, talking to his fellow officers about gassing the Kurds. 'Who is going to say anything?,' closed quotes, he asks. Quote, 'The international community? F-blank them,'" exclamation point, closed quote. Now, can this possibly be true? We already knew that Saddam was a dangerous man at the time. I realize that you were not in public office at the time, but you were dispatched to Iraq by President Reagan to talk about the need to improve relations between Iraq and the U.S. Let me ask you again: To your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapon during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? The Washington Post reported this morning that the United States is stepping away from efforts to strengthen the Biological Weapons Convention. I'll have a question on that later. Let me ask you again: Did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapon during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? SEC. RUMSFELD: I have not read the article. I, as you suggest, I was for a period in late '83 and early '84, asked by President Reagan to serve as Middle East envoy after the Marines -- 241 Marines were killed in Beirut. And as part of my responsibilities, I did visit Baghdad. I did meet with Mr. Tariq Aziz, and I did meet with Saddam Hussein, and spent some time visiting with them about the war they were engaged in with Iran.
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Eric 1994 Bordeaux Pearl SVX LSi "The SVX — Where, they wondered, do you put the kayak?" |
#19
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Doug
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1992 LS Touring (6/91) - Currently undergoing a five speed swap Black over Claret with spoiler; 235,000 miles; Mods: 2002 Legacy 5 speed, ACT Pressure Plate, Excedy Clutch, Short Throw Shifter, Aussie Powerchip 1992 LS Touring (6/91) Black over Claret with 2.5" setback spoiler; 202,000 miles; Mods: B&M Cooler 1994 LSi (4/93) Bordeaux Pearl; 198,000 miles; Mods: Weight reduction. 1969 Mustang GT Convertible 1970 Mustang Convertible 2000 Ford Excursion Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua. My Locker |
#20
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im in 100% agreement with doug on this.
phil
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~Phil Teal 1992 Subaru SVX Turbo - Sold in May 2011 to peace-frog. |
#21
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Sidewinder, thanks for posting part of your essay. I think what's important to note is that the world was a very different place in the '80s, and we had very different strategic goals then. Enemy number one was the USSR and we had tons of indirect conflicts with them. These conflicts affected the local people involved, but we had a Big Bad Evil to keep at bay.
Sometimes foreign policy seems contradictory, especially with that 20/20 hindsight. Often our goals today are different than they were twenty years ago, and people often forget to consider that when looking back and saying, 'well, that was stupid.'
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2005 RX-8 Grand Touring 2005 Outback 2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon END OF LINE |
#22
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I think it's very possible that there were some lingering WMDs before we invaded. We certainly had some good intelligence suggesting that there were. But, facing an imminent (and crushing) American invasion, they could damage our international relations by quickly getting rid of them and leaving us empty-handed after the dust settled. As Lwin said, it was a bluff. But I don't agree with Lwin that, since we called it, we lost. We will only have lost if we fail to help the Iraqis rebuild their country with a representative government incapable of the sort of atrocities Saddam inflicted on his neighbors and his own people. If we had 'left in 7 days,' like he suggested - that would be a loss.
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2005 RX-8 Grand Touring 2005 Outback 2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon END OF LINE |
#23
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Just my thoughts.
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Lwin M. Maung (Member # 147) Current SVX: • NONE Previous SVXes: •1994 LE Barcelona Red 107k • 1992 LS-L Pearl White 143k • 1994 LSi Bordeaux Pearl 220k • 1992 LS-L Ebony Pearl 184k • 1992 LS-L Liquid Silver 145k • 1992 LS-L Liquid Silver 102k • 1992 LS-L Ebony Pearl 123k Other current cars:•2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Black If at first you don't succeed, CHEAT!
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#24
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Some seem to forget the fact that the US began as a "colony," so, we're not exactly numb to what colonization means. Sheesh, it took us forever to get rid of those pesky British . Now, they're our staunchest ally. I'm not all about "occupation" but, I am in favor of liberation. If there's a situation in which the leader of a country is sumarrily deleting humans, merely because they are not of the same "sect" or race, and the UN turns a blind eye, I'm all for going in and removing said "leader." No, what the "leader" would do to his own citizens IS our business. Hitler was our business . . . Moussolini was our business . . . Idi Amin was our business (of course, he went on his own) . . . because, if left unchecked, these people will spread their poison as far as they can, or, they will merely exploit their own people to show their power. Yes, the US made "happy" with Iraq, when it suited them. Yes, the US trained Bin Laden. Yes, many of the guerillas in the South American countries were US trained. We make strategic moves to accomplish what is needed at the time. It's pure and simply "what's done" and the US is not exclusive in its use of such tactics. As far as the US goes, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we try to aid a country, people get pissed and ask "why did you do that?" If we sit back and let some despot grind his people into a bloody pulp, we're asked, "why didn't you do something?" It's a dicotomy we'll just have to live with. What really gualds my balls is for our guys to die, doing what they believe is right, and then have people "poo poo" their sacrifice as being "stupid." Personally, I wish we could bring ALL of our boys home and simply keep them around our borders, and leave the rest of the world to their own devices. But, that's not possible, so, until the rest of the world can take full and complete care of it's own damned problems, I say, quit giving the US crap every time one of our boys has to die to clean up someone elses mess. Just my thoughts.
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Randy Johnson 3rd Registered Member 02-21-2001 First Member to Reach 10,000 Posts First to arrive at the very first Reading Meet Subaru Ambassador 1992 SVX PPG Pace Car Replica 110+k 1993 White Impreza L 240+K miles 2001 Legacy Outback Limited Sedan 250+K miles 2013 Deep Indigo Pearl Legacy 3.6R 49+K miles "Reading is my favorite Holiday" Mike Davis -- at Reading VI Last edited by Aredubjay; 12-15-2003 at 12:03 PM. |
#25
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I am going to take a easy way out on this one. I have my point of view on the situation and may of you all do as well. We can keep telling each other on and on but the it will not change the situation at all.
I am glad that one Nutcase is at least under control. How they got to the nutcase is what I have trouble with but that's ok. Let's end this here before a lot more people get "personally" involved.
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Lwin M. Maung (Member # 147) Current SVX: • NONE Previous SVXes: •1994 LE Barcelona Red 107k • 1992 LS-L Pearl White 143k • 1994 LSi Bordeaux Pearl 220k • 1992 LS-L Ebony Pearl 184k • 1992 LS-L Liquid Silver 145k • 1992 LS-L Liquid Silver 102k • 1992 LS-L Ebony Pearl 123k Other current cars:•2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Black If at first you don't succeed, CHEAT!
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#26
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Yea, we should probably close this thread.
phil
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~Phil Teal 1992 Subaru SVX Turbo - Sold in May 2011 to peace-frog. |
#27
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Sorry, Lwin, I'm a little aggravated with people who sit in the comfort of their easy chairs, enjoying the freedoms offered by the sacrifices of our warriors and treating it like some "political football" as if they had a better idea. I'm mainly thinking of our soon-to-be presidential canditates, who, instead of trying to use the capture of Saddam as an opportunity to attack each other, or, to try and make themselves look good by "doing the polically correct thing" by congratulating the administration, should have stepped out of the spotlight, and spent a quiet day at home (or, in the case of Clark, in the Haque) saying nothing. The play that the Lieberman comment is getting is just pathetic. Dean stumbling to make Saddam's capture a "good thing" without giving the administration credit, is comical. Kerry, giving the administration credit, through what can only be clinched teeth (figuratively), is "perfect politico." Sheesh! Iraq is free, Saddam is captured -- let's help the folks get set up, make sure they're secure, then, move on and let them enjoy their new-found liberty. End of story. What's done, to this point, is done. Leave the rest for the future. I'm done.
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Randy Johnson 3rd Registered Member 02-21-2001 First Member to Reach 10,000 Posts First to arrive at the very first Reading Meet Subaru Ambassador 1992 SVX PPG Pace Car Replica 110+k 1993 White Impreza L 240+K miles 2001 Legacy Outback Limited Sedan 250+K miles 2013 Deep Indigo Pearl Legacy 3.6R 49+K miles "Reading is my favorite Holiday" Mike Davis -- at Reading VI |
#28
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In my opinion, this isn't the type of thread we should close. It's a civilized discussion so far, and I don't have a problem with that. It's off-topic, but that's what this forum is for.
We have pretty free and open newsgroups here at work, but at least two things are banned: discussions surrounding religion or politics. Do we need to do that here? I don't think so, but maybe some people do...
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2005 RX-8 Grand Touring 2005 Outback 2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon END OF LINE |
#29
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I agree. The only time a thread should be pulled is when it really gets personal -- and, I think we all know the difference. Let me say this: I respect Lwin's position and opinion, even though I may disagree with it. That's what FOS is all about. I don't have to attack him, personally, in order to express my opinion, nor, him, me. However, I see nothing wrong with a "point/counterpoint" discussion. I hope we haven't stooped to the point of adding an off-topic forum, only to try and rule the legitimacy of "off-topicness" contained therein.
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Randy Johnson 3rd Registered Member 02-21-2001 First Member to Reach 10,000 Posts First to arrive at the very first Reading Meet Subaru Ambassador 1992 SVX PPG Pace Car Replica 110+k 1993 White Impreza L 240+K miles 2001 Legacy Outback Limited Sedan 250+K miles 2013 Deep Indigo Pearl Legacy 3.6R 49+K miles "Reading is my favorite Holiday" Mike Davis -- at Reading VI |
#30
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As for the US in Asia, Other than Korea, no one has stood up and said "We have WMDs and we plan to use them on Americans" so they only get small forces in a training or assistance mode, not a full on military presence. We also tried to help in Somalia where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were being killed. Unfortunately, our liberal president at that time tied the hands of the military and prevented anything other than pointless loss of life on both sides. Doug
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1992 LS Touring (6/91) - Currently undergoing a five speed swap Black over Claret with spoiler; 235,000 miles; Mods: 2002 Legacy 5 speed, ACT Pressure Plate, Excedy Clutch, Short Throw Shifter, Aussie Powerchip 1992 LS Touring (6/91) Black over Claret with 2.5" setback spoiler; 202,000 miles; Mods: B&M Cooler 1994 LSi (4/93) Bordeaux Pearl; 198,000 miles; Mods: Weight reduction. 1969 Mustang GT Convertible 1970 Mustang Convertible 2000 Ford Excursion Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua. My Locker Last edited by mohrds; 12-15-2003 at 01:10 PM. |
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