Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

[Dessertrunner]

Well I can't beleive how brilliant the contrubitions are from all the die hard SVX people.

Here is my 2 bob worth,

Is there agreement that what we're looking for is more oil flow rate not increased pressure? My impression is that we're already at a 12mm pump and they only alternatives available only increase pressure (?).
Bill

Bill flow is pressure, increase the flow it will increase the pressure unless we mod all the passaages. Pump flow has to move from 56lpm at 5,000 to around 84 lpm. My guess is at that number the blow off valve on the pump won't even go off.

I still really like the idea of switching to a timing chain - what all would need to be done in order to make that happen?

Chain drive can't even get close to the speed a belt drive can spin at that is why my dyno had to have belt drive (belt & pully cost $1K). The only reason the newer engines are going to chains is tha they don't need replacing every 100,000 k,
Good info on studs.


Don't touch twin cooling pumps with a 40 ft pole, not going to work. From my stand point cooling is sorted so its no longer a issue time to move on.



Dry Sump Update.
Bazza I pulled the oil pump off a engine and the mods we need to do are simple in my opinion. Could be a better way and happy to hears it.
Pull pump remove rotor and lob, it may be just the outter lob part, reassembly the pump. The supply from the the sump sution needs to be connected to the pressure out let on the new dry sump pump.
Net result the pressure valve will function as normal and the reset on the pump circut will function normally.

Have a great day all and keep up the good work.
Tony

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Chain drive can't even get close to the speed a belt drive can spin at that is why my dyno had to have belt drive (belt & pully cost $1K). The only reason the newer engines are going to chains is tha they don't need replacing every 100,000 k,

Really? I thought they would be able to spin faster. Another thing I've learned already .

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Dry Sump Update.
Bazza I pulled the oil pump off a engine and the mods we need to do are simple in my opinion. Could be a better way and happy to hears it.
Pull pump remove rotor and lob, it may be just the outter lob part, reassembly the pump. The supply from the the sump sution needs to be connected to the pressure out let on the new dry sump pump.
Net result the pressure valve will function as normal and the reset on the pump circut will function normally.

Wait so which part of the pump is it exactly that needs to be connected to the sump outlet?

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

From my stand point cooling is sorted so its no longer a issue time to move on.

Can we recap how that was sorted exactly even if just for the record? I have read most of the "again and again" thread, but I am still not entirely clear on it.

[Dessertrunner]

Wait so which part of the pump is it exactly that needs to be connected to the sump outlet?

When I get a chance I will do a cad of the mod.

Can we recap how that was sorted exactly even if just for the record. I have read most of the "again and again" thread, but I am still not entirely clear on it.

Good point I need to do that.

Tony

[bazza]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

Some miscellaneous info/thoughts/questions:

Arias carries EG33 head stud sets for $300 (cheaper than 2 $200 sets of EJ20 studs): http://www.atomicspeedware.com/ej33svx92-97.aspx
If anyone wants the sizes/part numbers for the studs let me know as I have them written down somewhere.

Is there any way we could make a pump that's a bigger size than our stock pump? Sort of like the cosworth 12mm pump that replaces the 10mm EJ pumps? Maybe machine one that's 15mm instead of 12mm?

I still really like the idea of switching to a timing chain - what all would need to be done in order to make that happen?

That's a handy link, thank you

Beware, don't buy 2 x sets of EJ20 head studs because the EG33 bolt lengths are different (two lengths due to helical cam wheels in the way) which means you can only use the central 4 x bolts as they're the same as the EJ2X lengths. The outer bolts are shorter. So if you do use EJ20 head studs, just pin the central piston using 4 bolts/studs on both sides. It's actually proven to handle around 800 bhp so more than fine for NA and most turbo applications.

To be honest though, I'd be doing more research on guys like Andy Forest (1050 bhp EG33) and Rigoli (1200 bhp EG33... they've already done all the hard work for us with the EG33 - obviously not all of it is applicable but we can easily take what we need - ie timing belt composition (kevlar like WRC STI belts?), oiling modifications (both run dry sumps) etc. I'd also be researching EJ2X valve train setups, they've also been tested to death and there are proven spring / retainer / valve / cam combinations up to these rpms.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

Can we recap how that was sorted exactly even if just for the record? I have read most of the "again and again" thread, but I am still not entirely clear on it.

2" outlet at base of radiator, 2" inlet into water pump.... big cross flow radiator. Done

No need to move or modify the actual thermostat in anyway.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Dry Sump Update.
Bazza I pulled the oil pump off a engine and the mods we need to do are simple in my opinion. Could be a better way and happy to hears it.
Pull pump remove rotor and lob, it may be just the outter lob part, reassembly the pump. The supply from the the sump sution needs to be connected to the pressure out let on the new dry sump pump.
Net result the pressure valve will function as normal and the reset on the pump circut will function normally.

Have a great day all and keep up the good work.
Tony

That's awesome Tony, got pics?

I've got some updates with my sump pan, will flick some to you tonight when I get home.

[dynomatt]

Are people like the Rigoli's more of a drag racing mentality...ie, it doesn't run long enough to generate a problem in between rebuilds?

Titanium valve train is a must to get those revs, and reasonably readily available assuming you swap to all STI valvetrain.

I ran 11mm lift and didn't need to clearance anything to fit...so I'm surprised Bob you had to?

Has anybody tried the Cosworth oil pump? It might be a simpler alternative than dry sump? Or just upping the pressure in our pump (which is all the Cosworth appears to be).

Has anybody had a cam gear/cam belt failure from revs (rather than from age)? I'm not sure it's an issue yet, particuarly if kevlar belts are available.

Doesn't horizontally opposed mean some of the harmonic issues won't appear?

Matt

[bazza]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

Are people like the Rigoli's more of a drag racing mentality...ie, it doesn't run long enough to generate a problem in between rebuilds?

Titanium valve train is a must to get those revs, and reasonably readily available assuming you swap to all STI valvetrain.

I ran 11mm lift and didn't need to clearance anything to fit...so I'm surprised Bob you had to?

Has anybody tried the Cosworth oil pump? It might be a simpler alternative than dry sump? Or just upping the pressure in our pump (which is all the Cosworth appears to be).

Has anybody had a cam gear/cam belt failure from revs (rather than from age)? I'm not sure it's an issue yet, particuarly if kevlar belts are available.

Doesn't horizontally opposed mean some of the harmonic issues won't appear?

Matt

Rigoli's, yes pure drag car hence why we take away what we need. It still revved to some massive RPM, it still had huge loading on the bearings so if we can find out details we can take what we need - the oiling in particular. Bare in mind it's making 4 times the power Jack's wikid EG33 NA did.... only 4 times... huge stress on the engine.

With Andy's EG33 making > 1000 hp, that's a track car. Both drags and motorkhana / autocross.

Cosworth simply get an EG33 12mm gearset and whack it in a 10 mm pump housing... that's how you get 12mm. Upping pressure won't work - you just get hot oil and cavitation. You don't really want "fizzy" oil lubricating your bearings.

I've stretched belts in the old 2.5L when going past 8500 rpm. Never got around to using a WRC STI kevlar belt... went EG33 instead.

Interesting about your buckets not having to be touched.. my old 2L STI heads with the big diameter solid buckets had to be heavily relieved to fit the Kelford 272 / 11.5mm cams. The covers also had to be machined which is what Bob was saying we'd have to do with big cams in the EG33 heads as per above.

[Dessertrunner]

Hi Matt,
I looked at the pressure issue and the current pump goes no were near top pressure blow off. The only way to increase pressure in the system is to increase flow.

I might be able to ask a mate in the machine tool industry if he can build bigger rotors.

A question do you think caviation/air was a problem in your oil issues?
Tony

[dynomatt]

Apologies Tony, I don't know enough about cavitation to know whether it was an issue.

I can say that the two bearing failures I've had relate to two very different circumstances.

1) engine had been overheating all rally, no oil pressure gauge (I know I know) but I continued on until the inevitable big end failure. Revs weren't that high though...I'd say it was maxing out at about 6500rpm which is around factory redline. I assume heat contributed to oil failure.

2) -4 degree morning, I'd started the engine and had idled for some time warming it up before I fouled a plug. Revving the engine attempting to clear the plug, and the big end failed. Again engine revs would have been no more than 7500rpm. I haven't solved this one yet, but have started to tear down the block.

Matt

[bazza]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

Apologies Tony, I don't know enough about cavitation to know whether it was an issue.

I can say that the two bearing failures I've had relate to two very different circumstances.

1) engine had been overheating all rally, no oil pressure gauge (I know I know) but I continued on until the inevitable big end failure. Revs weren't that high though...I'd say it was maxing out at about 6500rpm which is around factory redline. I assume heat contributed to oil failure and you were of course under race conditions.

2) -4 degree morning, I'd started the engine and had idled for some time warming it up before I fouled a plug. Revving the engine attempting to clear the plug, and the big end failed. Again engine revs would have been no more than 7500rpm. I haven't solved this one yet, but have started to tear down the block.

Matt

Failure 1 was most definetely not the fault of the bearing or oiling system. Oil temps would've been through the roof - prolly way above 150'C. I recall a recent email someone sent to an oil company and they said above 150'C with their oil and it pretty much loses all properties that make it prevent metal / metal contact.

Failure 2 could be anything - history, tune etc. What happened the time before the failure? Overheating? As I've said somewhere else, detonation will rip these bearings apart in no time flat. Remove detonation and you'll snap rods before the big ends fail under load.

[dynomatt]

I'd only got the tune going the previous day. The engine had done half a rally a couple of months before but we crashed out and then we'd fitted the ITB's. Definitely didn't have big end failure sounds when I just got the tune loaded. Nor was anything apparent the next morning in the time it was idling.

Matt

[bazza]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

I'd only got the tune going the next day. The engine had done half a rally a couple of months before but we crashed out. Definitely didn't have big end failure sounds when I just got the tune loaded. Nor was anything apparent the next morning in the time it was idling.

Matt

Usually if the tune has detonation and it occurs under heavy load / race conditions it can be simply the next start up or next heavy loading or even next oil change that is the last straw and spins them. Same with major oil surge etc. Cold start is known for being the most damaging for engine bearings. Kinda like the oil warmer in my dry sump tank after thinking about this

[svxfiles]

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Valued Customer\My Documents\My Pictures\SVX oil pump, stock[/IMG]

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Valued Customer\My Documents\My Pictures\SVX oil pump, stock[/IMG]

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Valued Customer\My Documents\My Pictures\SVX oil pump, stock[/IMG]

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Valued Customer\My Documents\My Pictures\SVX oil pump, stock[/IMG]

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Valued Customer\My Documents\My Pictures\SVX oil pump, stock[/IMG]

This MAY show up as pictures, or as just links to my "New Locker", or not.....

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by bazza

2" outlet at base of radiator, 2" inlet into water pump.... big cross flow radiator. Done

No need to move or modify the actual thermostat in anyway.

Ok so the connection from the water pump to the radiator basically gets opened up wider? How did you accomplish this? (pics?)

I am guessing my bigass aluminum PWR radiator would be well enough suited to having a bigger outlet welded on?