The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > Technical Q & A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 08-10-2009, 07:07 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
tom,

I have explained in great detail why you are WRONG. You are unable to provide any information regarding your claims. The duty rates have nothing to do with the argument. The overall duty rates and duty signal would be reversed if the C solenoid is changed, thus completely upsetting the proper operation of the clutch.

My explanations are water tight and bullet proof.
You do realize the proper operation of the US clutch being operated by the VTD TCU is backwards right? That is why his transmission is binding under low throttle and why a JDM trans would bind under low throttle with a US TCU

The US clutch type will apply a 95% duty cycle at idle and low throttle and as low as 5% under WOT. This is just the basic programming of a US TCU. I have actually documented the actual rates in the past and a search might yeild some more accurate results. I am looking for someone who can provide the same about the VTD box

Tom

Last edited by TomsSVX; 08-10-2009 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-10-2009, 07:30 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
You do realize the proper operation of the US clutch being operated by the VTD TCU is backwards right? That is why his transmission is binding under low throttle and why a JDM trans would bind under low throttle with a US TCU

The US clutch type will apply a 95% duty cycle at idle and low throttle and as low as 5% under WOT. This is just the basic programming of a US TCU. I have actually documented the actual rates in the past and a search might yeild some more accurate results. I am looking for someone who can provide the same about the VTD box

Tom
In the steps of your mate, you side step your mistake. Admit that you have given the wrong advice in instructing Alex to undertake a lot of work and expense by changing the C solenoid.

I have been pointing out from the start of these threads, what you only now appear to comprehend. Control has, in a loosely described way, been reversed. However the actual duty cycle is not involved and requires no investigation, or confirmation, at this time.

Continued procrastination by you and your mate, will not get you off the hook.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-10-2009, 07:39 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
In the steps of your mate, you side step your mistake. Admit that you have given the wrong advice in instructing Alex to undertake a lot of work and expense by changing the C solenoid.

I have been pointing out from the start of these threads, what you only now appear to comprehend. Control has, in a loosely described way, been reversed. However the actual duty cycle is not involved and requires no investigation, or confirmation, at this time.

Continued procrastination by you and your mate, will not get you off the hook.
Trevor, everything I have said about this is based on an assumption. I have never stated anything more than that. Unlike you down unders I am OK with being wrong. So please, pretty please prove that the duty cycles are not reversed and that the Sol. C change would not fix his binding issues. I never said it would do more, but it would make it driveable. Until you do, you are pointing fingers.

Once these figures are posted, and I am indeed wrong I will admit my assumptions were incorrect. But you are nit-picking to try and find fault rather than trying to find a solution

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-11-2009, 06:00 AM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

BUMP BUMP.

Is anyone assisting regarding this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post

Hear Ye.

I have received two more e-mails from Alex. He is now has a clear understanding regarding retaining the existing N/C “C” solenoid, and changing to a US TCU.

N.B. ---- He now wishes to purchase a US TCU in order to make this modification.

N.B. ---- Also required is information regarding wiring, or sensor changes. This should be spelt out clearly using simple wording. As I understand it, there are members who are aware that he has done some work in this direction, and so will be in the best position to help him further.

Alex clearly understands that he is involved in a compromise set up, but he is stuck with it due to a lack of funds. This is a very sad situation, resulting from people well known to us, who have taken him for a ride.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-11-2009, 11:05 AM
1986nate 1986nate is offline
Senior Member
Subaru Silver Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Meadville, PA-but I'll still travel
Posts: 4,672
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

I can supply him a US TCU. I am already going to be sending him turn signals that he needs and have a spare TCU that I can add to save him on shipping costs.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-11-2009, 11:49 AM
svxistentialist's Avatar
svxistentialist svxistentialist is offline
Jersey Girl
Alcyone Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,270
Send a message via Skype™ to svxistentialist
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

That's excellent Nate.

Once he gets that wired in he will be away and clear.

Joe
__________________
Black Betty [Bam a Lam!] '93 UK spec, still languishing Betty
Jersey Girl Silver '92 UK [Channel Isles] 40K Jersey Girl @ Mersea
Candy Purple Honda Blackbird Plum Dangerous
White X2 RVR Mitsubishi 1800GDI. Vantastic

40,000 miles Jersey Girl
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-11-2009, 03:52 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist View Post
That's excellent Nate.

Once he gets that wired in he will be away and clear.

Joe
Even better than excellent Nate.

Special thanks, Trevor.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-11-2009, 05:16 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
Trevor, everything I have said about this is based on an assumption. I have never stated anything more than that. Unlike you down unders I am OK with being wrong. So please, pretty please prove that the duty cycles are not reversed and that the Sol. C change would not fix his binding issues. I never said it would do more, but it would make it driveable. Until you do, you are pointing fingers.

Once these figures are posted, and I am indeed wrong I will admit my assumptions were incorrect. But you are nit-picking to try and find fault rather than trying to find a solution

Tom
Tom,

Please be sure that I am not nit picking and trying to find fault when none exists. My object is to ensure that members are provided with correct information. In particular, that Alex is/was not persuaded to spend time and money on a wild goose chase.

E.G. If you were arguing about a flat earth and I pointed out -- That tall objects at a distance were visible but not short objects at the same distance. That a vehicle could travel in the same direction and end up at the starting point. That the shadow on the moon was indicative.

In the event that you did not understand these concepts, this would not show factual evidence as being unproved.

This argument is costing me a great deal of time. However as I have always had respect for you, I am sure that you are simply confused, rather than dodging the issue, as is common in respect of another member opposing me.

You demonstrate considerable mechanical knowledge. However in this instance, I am at advantage, having trodden this same road for many years. My bread was buttered by designing electrical/electronic control systems. A design error in respect of any large contract, would have sent my company bankrupt, with all my employees out of a job. This has forced me into a habit of accuracy.

In current argument no set of figures is involved or required and nothing of this order can be, or is required to be posted.

If there was a difference in the duty cycles, (i.e. That they are reversed.) there would NOT be a need for different solenoids in the VTD and US transmissions. This very fact proves that the duty cycles are NOT reversed. What is more there is additional solid evidence.

I again present the statements of proof, that I have already posted in the threads. -----

Thread, jdm svx trans, will it work?

#87 Trevor. If the normally closed C solenoid in the USDM transmission, *Alex now has fitted, is changed for a normally open C solenoid from a VTD transmission, the function of a signal from his current VTD TCU, will be reversed. e.g. An instruction to reduce clutch pressure, will result in an increase in pressure and vice versa. This is so, no matter which TCU is used. (The basic signals from the VTD and US being similar)

#90 Trevor. With the VTD TCU fitted in Alex’ SVX, when pressure is intended to be increased, a signal with an increased pulse length will be sent from the TCU, with the expectation of closing a normally open solenoid bleed valve. This would normally result in increased pressure and close the centre differential clutch to lock the centre differential.

The same increased pulse length (or a continuous) signal, when sent to the normally closed solenoid valve, now fitted in the US transmission in Alex’ car, will open the valve and reduce the pressure, opening the centre transfer clutch and provide only front wheel drive.

Fitting the special fuse, will have this same effect. N.B. This fact was confirmed by alex in post #40 as follows.---
“when i insert the fuse in Diff Lock then the rear diff is not in use and the car could spin on the front weal.”

#92 Trevor. This is the guts of the situation. ---

#1 Normal VTD system. --- When increased front bias is required, the pulse length will be increased, in order to close a N/O solenoid, thus increasing pressure, to close a LSD clutch. The TCU will be programmed to increase the pulse length.

#1 With Alex' car. --- When increased front bias is required, the same increased pulse length command, will open a N/C solenoid, thus reducing pressure, to open the centre clutch. The TCU will be programmed to increase the pulse length.

#2 Normal VTD system. --- When increased rear bias is required, the pulse length will be reduce, in order to open a N/O solenoid, thus reducing pressure, to open a LSD clutch. The TCU will be programmed to reduce the pulse length.

#2 With Alex' car. --- When increased rear bias is required, the same reduced pulse length command, will close a N/C solenoid, thus increasing pressure, to close the centre clutch. The TCU will be programmed to reduce the pulse length.

The above shows that at present the sequence is as required and does not require the change in solenoid. (Both systems have the same sequence in respect of a signal.)

#114 Trevor. The VDT TCU will provide the same instruction, to a now N/C solenoid, as when the complete VDT LSD system was in use,to enable the same result. There is no change of solenoid required.

If a US type TCU is fitted, the same sequence will apply and the same N/C solenoid must be used. A simple reversal of the action of the command is required. (There is no change of solenoid required.)

This reversal is taken care of as a result of the changed transmission, with its existing normally closed C solenoid. A change to a normally open C solenoid, as has been wrongly suggested, will result in no change, and no reversed action as is required.

#122 Trevor. The same signal in respect of pulse length, is transmitted by both types of TCU. In both a lengthened pulse operates the solenoid. A shortening pulse disengages the solenoid towards its normal non-operated position when not energised.

The difference in solenoids provides the required reverse action for the associated valve. The US tranny has a solenoid valve which when energised opens to take pressure off the clutch i.e. a N/C. The VTD has a solenoid which when energised applies pressure and locks up the clutch. "It is that plain and simple"

#124 Trevor. I have in several instances, including the above, proven that the signal is the same in respect of the application of pulse length. Both use a lengthened pulse to increase the effect/movement of the SOLENOID, but not operation of the VALVE which is opposite in the respect of a normally open and normally closed solenoid valve.

A normally open (N/O) solenoid valve, rests with the valve open. A normally closed (N/C), with the valve closed. A very good reason why I often use the full wording "solenoid valve" in preference to simply "solenoid".

Thread, US over European.

#12 Trevor. It has been done in Europe, but THE C SOLENOID WAS NOT CHANGED and the ORIGINAL N/C SOLENOID RETAINED. A US TCU was installed. All exactly as I have been stating, over and over.

#13 Trevor. The solenoid MUST match the transmission in use, NOT the TCU. The same increasing/decreasing pulse length signal, is applied by both TCU. The "phasing" is NOT reversed.

This IS the very REASON for the different solenoids in respect of the two transmissions. Reversing the action of the solenoids corrects an otherwise incorrect signal, thus preventing the need for any mechanical alteration.

#26 Trevor. By changing the C solenoid, as you keep suggesting, the proper duty cycle signal will be reversed when applied to the transmission. An off period will register as an on period and an on period as an off period.

#29 Trevor. The duty rates have nothing to do with the argument. The overall duty rates and duty signal would be reversed if the C solenoid is changed, thus completely upsetting the proper operation of the clutch.


Pleas read and assimilate the above data carefully.

All the very best, Trevor.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-11-2009, 09:48 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
Trevor, everything I have said about this is based on an assumption. I have never stated anything more than that. Unlike you down unders I am OK with being wrong. So please, pretty please prove that the duty cycles are not reversed and that the Sol. C change would not fix his binding issues. I never said it would do more, but it would make it driveable. Until you do, you are pointing fingers.

Once these figures are posted, and I am indeed wrong I will admit my assumptions were incorrect. But you are nit-picking to try and find fault rather than trying to find a solution

Tom
I want the duty rates of the VTD Sol C. Nothing more

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-12-2009, 01:50 AM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
I want the duty rates of the VTD Sol C. Nothing more

Tom
Tom, you must be patient.

The solenoid of itself, can not have duty rates. If your query refers to the signal the solenoid receives, the answer is, at a rate of 50 cycles per second, there being but one rate and no rates.

Duty --- A task or action that someone is required to perform.

Rate --- A measure, quantity, or frequency, typically one measured against some other quantity or measure. The time occupied by this, especially. as a percentage of available time.

I would guess that you mean, Duty cycle. --- The cycle of operation of a machine or other device that operates intermittently rather than continuously. Again, the solenoid of itself, can not have a specified duty cycle.

If you require the "duty cycle" being followed by the solenoid, this can not be qualified. The duty cycle will be continuously variable depending on many factors including, driver output, road conditions, wheel torque loading, etc. etc.

I know what you are reaching for, bur that straw does nor exist.

There is no difference between the US and VTD signal, in respect of the command transmitted. In both, the pulse length results in activation of the solenoid, whereupon it will move away from the normal, or rest position.

You have to prove that changing the solenoid valve, could, might, possibly, or will improve, Alex' arrangement as it existed. When in fact it will render the situation, very much worse. The valve will open when it should close and vice versa.

At this point I must ask --- Can you read English, or is it that I am wasting my time communicating by means of text?

Keep them coming. Trevor.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-12-2009, 05:04 AM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Tom, you must be patient.

The solenoid of itself, can not have duty rates. If your query refers to the signal the solenoid receives, the answer is, at a rate of 50 cycles per second, there being but one rate and no rates.

Duty --- A task or action that someone is required to perform.

Rate --- A measure, quantity, or frequency, typically one measured against some other quantity or measure. The time occupied by this, especially. as a percentage of available time.

I would guess that you mean, Duty cycle. --- The cycle of operation of a machine or other device that operates intermittently rather than continuously. Again, the solenoid of itself, can not have a specified duty cycle.

If you require the "duty cycle" being followed by the solenoid, this can not be qualified. The duty cycle will be continuously variable depending on many factors including, driver output, road conditions, wheel torque loading, etc. etc.

I know what you are reaching for, bur that straw does nor exist.

There is no difference between the US and VTD signal, in respect of the command transmitted. In both, the pulse length results in activation of the solenoid, whereupon it will move away from the normal, or rest position.

You have to prove that changing the solenoid valve, could, might, possibly, or will improve, Alex' arrangement as it existed. When in fact it will render the situation, very much worse. The valve will open when it should close and vice versa.

At this point I must ask --- Can you read English, or is it that I am wasting my time communicating by means of text?

Keep them coming. Trevor.
Open the FSM and read off what the duty rate is for the sol. C in a VTD transmission. Procrastinating to save face is a bad idea

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:11 AM
NiftySVX NiftySVX is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 836
Send a message via AIM to NiftySVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
You have hit the nail on the head without beating a dead horse. It will not function as designed but it will not bind the transmission in normal driving situations which can and will cause internal damage.

I agree it would be best to fit a US TCU but where is going to find someone who will be capable of doing the needed wiring changes and do it right?

I personally would put it back to a VTD trans because they work much better than the US variant.

All I am trying to do is get it so he has a car to drive and not worry about breaking the internals because of his binding issues.

Tom
Yeah, what he said. Post 14 and by extension 15 have answered the original question. This was my original assumption, and is why I attempted in the previous thread to provide an exhaustive explanation of my reasoning. I think that since others have corroborated it who are fairly well versed we should accept it and move on.
__________________
2007 GS 450h-Active Stabilizer/Radar cruise
1994 L Blue 3.70 VTD



ASE Master Automobile
ASE Advanced Level Specialist
Toyota Master Diagnostic Technician (former life)

Last edited by NiftySVX; 08-12-2009 at 08:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:50 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
Open the FSM and read off what the duty rate is for the sol. C in a VTD transmission. Procrastinating to save face is a bad idea

Tom
Tom, Procrastinating to save face is a bad idea.

You claim that changing the correct N/C solenoid in Alex now fitted US transmission, will some how, some way work, and be a worthwhile experiment.

I say you are wrong. I have protected Alex from the needless work involved. I have proven my statement.

It is clear that you are unable to understand the relationship and the reason for the different solenoid valves in the US and VTD set ups. Every statement I have made, is accurate and valid and you have been unable to show otherwise.

You now once again present a question which is irrelevant, as a means of side stepping the issue. At no point within this discussion, have you put forward a single explanation to back up your advice to Alex. You have done nothing other than procrastinate to save face.

You confirm that an accurate reply is beyond your ability.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:51 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX View Post
I want the duty rates of the VTD Sol C. Nothing more

Tom
I can do this all day......... With quite a few less key strokes and bold letters

edit: also refer to post #33 for my logic and reasoning. If you are to call me a liar, then I highly suggest you look up the duty cycles not dependent upon wheel speed to prove me wrong

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:09 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Re: US over to europan.

On a side note, why has no one written up a schematic for him to wire the bellhousing mounted sensor into the TCU and cut the lead from the Hall sensor in the trans? This way he can do what you all are saying. I am not an electrical engineer, nor do I claim to be one. But I do know his tech's would need the pinout of the TCU and the sensor.

Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122