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  #61  
Old 09-05-2006, 04:42 PM
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Svx, Always And Forever Ahead Of It's Time!!

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php/press-release/1685/

Biomass e85 is coming to California, produced in state.
LAN is way ahead of this with his programming, wow.
105 octane to replace crappy 91 super CA octane, sounds good.
CA gas on par with the best in the world, what not to like?
Low CO and HC emissions, probably pass tests without cats, yes.
The svx was designed in high octane Japan, not no octane CA
Factory intended power from our high compression engines, okay,
Less dependance on foreign oil reserves, amen,
SVX, ALWAYS AND FOREVER AHEAD OF IT'S TIME!!

Tom, what components are you testing? Way to go by the way!!

With all the spare parts available, did you cut up a piece of a gas tank and drop it in a jar of e85? Do the same with all the fuel pump hoses, fuel pump, etc.? These parts are rarely saved when cars are parted and crushed, someone send Tom parts if needed!

I'll run e85 on a couple of my cars, as soon as it becomes available here. That should not be long, the governor likes it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX
Well Ben bang for my buck comes in huge right here. E85 has a octane rating of 105 if I remember correctly. this alone will allow me to run more boost on stock internals without risking detonation. Those higher boost #'s along with Micheal's explaination of how much better ethanol enters, burns and exits the chambers will increase the engines perfromance dramatically and for a forced induction car do just as much as $7 per gallon 105 race fuel only ringing in at a glorious $2.25 per gallon. So bang for your buck is severley increased there. We are also testing components on the stock SVX fuel system to see how they hold up to extended exposure to E85 that has been contaminated with water. So this should also help those that fear this fuel come to terms with the fact that we really should look somewhere else than the dinosaurs for fuel to keep our cars going. Not trying to deny that the fuel does burn at much less of a BTU per volume BUT there are gains that you are merely hiding behind these disadvantages.

Tom
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Last edited by NeedForSpeed; 09-05-2006 at 04:48 PM.
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  #62  
Old 09-05-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
Not hiding one bit. Remember propane would be a much better choice and CHEAPER than E-85. Longa$$name seems convinced that e-85 is the same is race ethanol (which it isn't and never would even come close). There's this certain equation that Einstein came up with that proves the truth about E-85. Sure there's advantages and disadvantages to everything. Ethanol isn't the answer since it takes more than a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol. Why else would Bush support it?

Still waiting for you'r proof there L... Oh right YOU'RE WRONG SO THERE ISN'T ANY!

How does it take more than a gallon of gas to produce a allon of E85?? it is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is price at current around 75% the cost of a gallon of premium. Besides the ability to run higher boost and make less emitions AND save money, you are using a renewable resource which will not depleat oil supplies that are needed for other applications. Ben even if it does decrease your mileage, you will still spend relatively less buying more of it. Why are you not converting and tunning your cars for propane then??

Tom
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  #63  
Old 09-05-2006, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed

Tom, what components are you testing? Way to go by the way!!

With all the spare parts available, did you cut up a piece of a gas tank and drop it in a jar of e85? Do the same with all the fuel pump hoses, fuel pump, etc.? These parts are rarely saved when cars are parted and crushed, someone send Tom parts if needed!

I'll run e85 on a couple of my cars, as soon as it becomes available here. That should not be long, the governor likes it.

We will be testing a fuel injector and o rings... fuel rails... fuel pump... and misc hoses and o-rings. When we do this and get results we will let all of u know our findings... good or bad

Tom
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  #64  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX
We will be testing a fuel injector and o rings... fuel rails... fuel pump... and misc hoses and o-rings. When we do this and get results we will let all of u know our findings... good or bad

Tom
Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe
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  #65  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist
Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe
To increase the chance of acidic corrosion i will be adding a small amount of water to the can, this will cause the caustic acid to form as it would if the fuel system were contaminated.
phil
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  #66  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:14 PM
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Well, figure of speech, sort of:

I was assuming Tom would add some water, some urine, stir and then test in a Philly snow bank and later, in direct summer sun. Tom seems more than capable enough to devise a variety of torture tests, perhaps a baseline with e85 and another with water, etc. I wonder about that plastic fuel tank though, I would really like to see how a piece of that holds up.

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist
Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe
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  #67  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:19 PM
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Phil will be doing the tests. I merely ran the idea by LAN one of the many times I had to call him during my Stage3 install. Yes they will be kept at room temperature and will not be moved or disturbed for two weeks in E85 that contains a fair amount of water (typically get water in your fuel system) and see if our fuel system merely contains elemental coatings to keep the materials from deteriorating or if they are at risk to corrosion by the new fuel. Either way, it won't be conclusive but helpful to say the least

Tom
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  #68  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:20 PM
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Just ordered my Stage 2, Version 6 chip. Will run it on whatever gas I can find. With luck, I will have it in before I go to Watkins Glen on Sept 18.
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  #69  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.
If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil
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  #70  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedForSpeed
Well, figure of speech, sort of:

I was assuming Tom would add some water, some urine, stir and then test in a Philly snow bank and later, in direct summer sun. Tom seems more than capable enough to devise a variety of torture tests, perhaps a baseline with e85 and another with water, etc. I wonder about that plastic fuel tank though, I would really like to see how a piece of that holds up.

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.
OK Ron, you got me, I forgot the urine test!!!

Well, it's OK, Phil is doing the tests. I have seen how he drives on a video, so I reckon it will be plenty aggressive and vigorous.

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  #71  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phast SVX
If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil
Hey Phil

Best of luck with it. I trust and hope you will do no damage, if careful.

Elsewhere in this thread I have said I reckon our stuff will probably handle the fuel OK, and I still think that way.

Just the same, when you are starting to use the fuel, start off with a lower percentage, say a half tank of it or a third of a tank. Let the ECU learn and adjust gradually, the way it likes to. That's the way the guy on NASIOC dialled in the WRX, and it's going OK after a year or two.

Best of luck.

Joe
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  #72  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phast SVX
If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil
Phil, I have my spare engine in the garage complete with injectors and rails. No intake (sent it to LAN) but most of the other stuff is on there if you need it. I also have a spare throttle body. It'll cost you some beer at the next meet but that's about it.

Don't mind Benebob you guys, he's just bitter about the nitrous kit I won't lend him.
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  #73  
Old 09-05-2006, 06:50 PM
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More info

There is a lot of information on here about conversions, and mentioning what metals may cause problems:

http://e85forum.com/about44.html

Joe
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  #74  
Old 09-05-2006, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxistentialist
Good to see a sense of humour coming back to this discussion.

Ethanol being produced from green crops [can be sugar cane, can be corn, can be lots of things] ensures it is CO2 neutral, because the CO2 it releases to the atmosphere is re-absorbed in the growing process. As CO2 is known to be a major contributor to global warming, then by that definition using ethanol fuel is a Good Thing, at least it's less harmful than gasoline.

It is costly to produce at present, but not gallon for gallon. Production percentage costs in the US can be around 75% mark, but in Brazil their advanced production distillation methods with sugar cane are way better, about 25%, so improvements are on the cards for the future.

The only grey clouds on the horizon are the ones you mention Ben, massive production will require massive acreage. This in turn will use up possible food production acreage, and world food surpluses are being used up very quickly over the last few years.

So there is yin and yang, as with everything else.

Because ethanol fuel comes from a renewable source, unlike oil, which is dwindling, it has to figure as a fuel for the future. Propane can be generated from coal stocks too, so there will always be a place for that fuel as well in reciprocating engines, so long as the price structure suits.

Joe

Sense of humor is always there. You don't spend time in a super competative architecture program w/o being able to both take it or receive it. As for your 75% that doesn't include everything. The real costs are in transportation of the product to facilites, actually farming it, distilling it (which is typically done in coal burning power plant areas built around the time oh say Mr. Mummert was born). Energy wise you get about 80% of the BTUs out of a gallon of e-85 as it takes in btus to produce it. That's pretty green even with fuzy math! Cough... cough... choke... choke...

As you say Columbia is doing well with their production which is true but those crops don't grow here well and honestly if anyone here believes the gov't is gonna allow the only crop that would be cost effective to be grown (hemp) in the US you need to put down that bong. Reason its corn is we pay through taxes for something like 20% of the corn grown in the us that usually is scrapped as giving it away to starving people would result in get this... lower prices for corn so unlike gas which is taxed beyond belief (up to a $1.00 in some states (yes I've been to Ireland so you'd DIE for that tax on gas) e-85 is subsidized by on average $.65 a gallon directly and $.90 indirectly.
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  #75  
Old 09-05-2006, 07:47 PM
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With all that said there is really only one way to find out for sure if it would be a benefit for a N/A car which is mostly stock. That is to try it. Right now, Phil is doing the major testing with his car and extra parts I have like the injectors, fuel rails... etc. It would be GREAT if someone has a spare fuel tank they wouldn't mind cutting up and using a portoin of for these tests as well. To respond to the question of what metals are effected... We are not exactly sure what metals are included in our engines and what kind of protective coatings are applied if any. So it goes back to the drawing board until we do some rudimentary testing. Which should commence shortly

Tom
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